The symbol of American yoyoing?

[YoRED]

G2

[modman10]

@Steve Brown

I think we can all agree that of all the pros in the world who would still have the patience for this place, ME being one of the last ones standing is something no one saw coming.

André, mark this date! LOL

I will seriously make a bunch of counterweights and give them to anyone who asks on that date.

And stay up on that night and smack myself in the face with a counterweight when it hits 12.

[Shai_Hulud]

@vegabomb

Then I don’t care who you are either.

I didn’t comment on whether I cared who Steve Brown is. He seemed offended I made comments about him behind his back. That’s how I took his statement (perhaps incorrectly). My reply to Steve should have been less terse but I wasn’t in the mood to make a lengthy post. All I meant by “Yes. Don’t care.” was that I was aware he posts regularly on these forums, that I wouldn’t be surprised if he was monitoring this thread (or searching for his name or whatever–some people do this), and that I didn’t care that he was.

[quote=“vegabomb,post:102,topic:66131”]
That’s your prerogative, though I think you misunderstood me.

[quote=“vegabomb,post:102,topic:66131”]
Vague.

@Ilike2throwstuff

Ok so this has seemed spun out from the original question. Patents are the symbol American yo-yoing? I think the original idea was to discus possible players, manufactures (less all the legal stuff), yoyos or maybe even a style play.

Well most people have posted their opinions already. Continuing to debate the “symbol of American yoyoing” ad nauseum would be pretty boring. So it turned into a debate about patents, Steve Brown, and the wicked troll Shai Hulud ostensibly not liking Steve Brown.

@Steve Brown

I get a few of these every year.

Vague.

[quote=“Steve Brown,post:105,topic:66131”]
If the same conversation were going on in person and you popped your head in I would probably respond the same way. I say/write what I’m thinking without considering the social consequences because I find it too difficult (I’m autistic). I didn’t think my response was rude but can tell by people’s hostile reactions that it must have been.

[quote=“Steve Brown,post:105,topic:66131”]
I don’t know nothing about you. I’d bet I know a lot more about you than you do about me. You shouldn’t take it personally if random nobodies talk about you since you’re “famous.”

@Steve Brown

and you spin off at the mouth about things you know nothing about.

Why do you think that? I’m not even an expert, much less the expert and have never claimed otherwise.

[quote=“Steve Brown,post:105,topic:66131”]
I don’t think I said anything about you not knowing what you’re talking about. And I neither like nor dislike you.

[quote=“Steve Brown,post:105,topic:66131”]
Perhaps not, but you did. And you admit the goal was to make you money. I don’t understand your contention with me, based on that statement.

[quote=“Steve Brown,post:105,topic:66131”]
So you weren’t greedy, but were greedy and ignorant?

[quote=“Steve Brown,post:105,topic:66131”]
I wouldn’t have, for one. Now, as a 24 year old, as an 18 year old, even as a 13 year old. That’s not to say you filing a patent was an unusual response, just that I wouldn’t have done it. And since you know nothing about me, I don’t see how can you take umbrage if I say something like… “That [the fact I wouldn’t file such a patent] makes me either a lot dumber or less greedy than Steve Brown.”

[quote=“Steve Brown,post:105,topic:66131”]
I don’t understand your argument here. Are you saying if you’d been more greedy and gotten a better royalty rate, then companies would be allowed to freely make and market counterweights? Wouldn’t they just be transferring the licensing fee from Duncan to you? I must be missing something here.

[quote=“Steve Brown,post:105,topic:66131”]
First, as stated, your argument is weak. It’s possible you’re right, but no one will ever know for certain.

Second, there were more than two choices. It wasn’t a choice of “patent it and get screwed” or “patent it and make tons of money.” You also could have patented it under a free license that would allow anyone to make counterweights while keeping a single company from monopolizing them. Or you could have made no patent but publicized the information for the purpose of preventing future patents based on your work.

Third, patenting something so trivial in the hopes of making big bucks is a little greedy. The fact that you didn’t make big bucks only bears on your ignorance at the time, not your expectations–and greed is all about expectations.

And finally, I don’t think you’re an awful person (in particular) but do blame you and Duncan (mostly Duncan) for the current monopolization of counterweight design and everything 5A by our favorite company, Duncan=Lawsuit, even if this is not what you intended. Besides, who cares what I think? Most people here love you, as evinced by the orgy of thank-you posts given to you every time you write a few words.

@Irwin Elkblood

WAY TO KILL THE 5A SCENE BEFORE THERE WAS EVEN A 5A SCENE STEVE.

Hmm…funny. I said nothing of the kind and don’t think anyone else did either. I’m the troll though, right? Not people who post irrelevant ALL-CAPS NONSENSE.

@modman10

Wow, a lot has been explained in this thread, sorry if I was mean to you Steve.

I’m still wondering though, would you mind telling us when the patent ends?

Pointless, I already answered this question. I actually do know what I’m talking about, at least some of the time…

@GregP

I would hardly call it vitriol.

It’s called hyperbole. Besides, I didn’t mean your reaction.

[quote=“GregP,post:115,topic:66131”]
I saw that there were a lot of replies in my “show new replies to your posts” page and avoided the thread because I figured it would take me a long time to respond properly and didn’t feel like it at the time. I actually do other stuff besides post here, hard to believe though it may be. I checked it when I saw you listed as latest poster because your posts tend to be relatively enlightened and/or provoking.

[quote=“GregP,post:115,topic:66131”]
At the time I said that I had only scanned the replies and got the gist that they were mostly negative towards me and positive towards Steve Brown. “Lies” might have been a stretch but much of what I said was indeed distorted. I’m used to it, though.

For the record I don’t get angry. It just appears that way because my thoughts are often bitter and my humor often sardonic. I’d be speaking in a monotonous manner if I were actually saying any of this.

[quote=“GregP,post:115,topic:66131”]
Hadn’t read the entire post at the time. It did contain much besides what you quoted, and there are plenty of distortions to be found. I pointed out some of them above.

@GregP

If anything, if it was someone less well-known than Steve, you might not have felt like you had to toe up and put on a big man show. You might have just apologized already like you should have.

I seriously doubt it (bolded part). And I don’t put on “man shows” for less than $500/hour, mister >:(

[quote=“GregP,post:115,topic:66131”]
Pretty sure I’m not going to make any enemies over a yoyo forum.

Well, I might make some, but one would have to do a lot to make an enemy out of me.

@kevinm

This thread is making me so angry I am just posting to notify you folks that I am too mad to post anything.

Sniping at one of the few ‘yoyoexperts’ that still has the patience to bother to respond to the forum any more, well that just really steams my bean. When all the quality contributors are driven away, you will be left with Tiger Beat for yo-yos… who’s cuter, Justin Bieber or Jensen Kimmett?

Wait, did I post that or just think it? I think I’ll go to sleep too.

See what I’m talking about GregP? People getting literally angry over perceived minor rudeness on the internet. Kevinm’s bean is practically steaming vitriol. Hmm… Actually that sounds painful…if it keeps up make sure you see a doctor Kevin.

[yoyospirit]

@Shai_Hulud

I didn’t comment on whether I cared who Steve Brown is. He seemed offended I made comments about him behind his back. That’s how I took his statement (perhaps incorrectly). My reply to Steve should have been less terse but I wasn’t in the mood to make a lengthy post. All I meant by “Yes. Don’t care.” was that I was aware he posts regularly on these forums, that I wouldn’t be surprised if he was monitoring this thread (or searching for his name or whatever–some people do this), and that I didn’t care that he was.
That’s your prerogative, though I think you misunderstood me.
Vague.

Well most people have posted their opinions already. Continuing to debate the “symbol of American yoyoing” ad nauseum would be pretty boring. So it turned into a debate about patents, Steve Brown, and the wicked troll Shai Hulud ostensibly not liking Steve Brown.

Vague.
If the same conversation were going on in person and you popped your head in I would probably respond the same way. I say/write what I’m thinking without considering the social consequences because I find it too difficult (I’m autistic). I didn’t think my response was rude but can tell by people’s hostile reactions that it must have been.
I don’t know nothing about you. I’d bet I know a lot more about you than you do about me. You shouldn’t take it personally if random nobodies talk about you since you’re “famous.”
Why do you think that? I’m not even an expert, much less the expert and have never claimed otherwise.
I don’t think I said anything about you not knowing what you’re talking about. And I neither like nor dislike you.
Perhaps not, but you did. And you admit the goal was to make you money. I don’t understand your contention with me, based on that statement.
So you weren’t greedy, but were greedy and ignorant?
I wouldn’t have, for one. Now, as a 24 year old, as an 18 year old, even as a 13 year old. That’s not to say you filing a patent was an unusual response, just that I wouldn’t have done it. And since you know nothing about me, I don’t see how can you take umbrage if I say something like… “That [the fact I wouldn’t file such a patent] makes me either a lot dumber or less greedy than Steve Brown.”
I don’t understand your argument here. Are you saying if you’d been more greedy and gotten a better royalty rate, then companies would be allowed to freely make and market counterweights? Wouldn’t they just be transferring the licensing fee from Duncan to you? I must be missing something here.
First, as stated, your argument is weak. It’s possible you’re right, but no one will ever know for certain.

Second, there were more than two choices. It wasn’t a choice of “patent it and get screwed” or “patent it and make tons of money.” You also could have patented it under a free license that would allow anyone to make counterweights while keeping a single company from monopolizing them. Or you could have made no patent but publicized the information for the purpose of preventing future patents based on your work.

Third, patenting something so trivial in the hopes of making big bucks is a little greedy. The fact that you didn’t make big bucks only bears on your ignorance at the time, not your expectations–and greed is all about expectations.

And finally, I don’t think you’re an awful person (in particular) but do blame you and Duncan (mostly Duncan) for the current monopolization of counterweight design and everything 5A by our favorite company, Duncan=Lawsuit, even if this is not what you intended. Besides, who cares what I think? Most people here love you, as evinced by the orgy of thank-you posts given to you every time you write a few words.

Hmm…funny. I said nothing of the kind and don’t think anyone else did either. I’m the troll though, right? Not people who post irrelevant ALL-CAPS NONSENSE.

Pointless, I already answered this question. I actually do know what I’m talking about, at least some of the time…

It’s called hyperbole. Besides, I didn’t mean your reaction.
I saw that there were a lot of replies in my “show new replies to your posts” page and avoided the thread because I figured it would take me a long time to respond properly and didn’t feel like it at the time. I actually do other stuff besides post here, hard to believe though it may be. I checked it when I saw you listed as latest poster because your posts tend to be relatively enlightened and/or provoking.
At the time I said that I had only scanned the replies and got the gist that they were mostly negative towards me and positive towards Steve Brown. “Lies” might have been a stretch but much of what I said was indeed distorted. I’m used to it, though.

For the record I don’t get angry. It just appears that way because my thoughts are often bitter and my humor often sardonic. I’d be speaking in a monotonous manner if I were actually saying any of this.
Hadn’t read the entire post at the time. It did contain much besides what you quoted, and there are plenty of distortions to be found. I pointed out some of them above.
I seriously doubt it (bolded part). And I don’t put on “man shows” for less than $500/hour, mister >:(
Pretty sure I’m not going to make any enemies over a yoyo forum.

Well, I might make some, but one would have to do a lot to make an enemy out of me.

See what I’m talking about GregP? People getting literally angry over perceived minor rudeness on the internet. Kevinm’s bean is practically steaming vitriol. Hmm… Actually that sounds painful…if it keeps up make sure you see a doctor Kevin.

Um, maybe you should just stop posting lol

[GregP]

I think you missed a big point of what Steve said… one might even say you “distorted” it. One of his main points is that if he had “kept more for himself” (being “greedy”) then he would have the kind of control necessary to “give it back” to the community… In other words, if he’d maintained more ownership for it, he could have helped 5A grow, even while potentially collecting a bit of money from non-crippling licenses.

[vegabomb (LJ)]

@Shai - if you don’t see this as rude and confrontational I’m not sure what to say.

Again, just my opinion.

@Shai_Hulud

Yes, don’t care.

[Shai_Hulud]

@GregP

I think you missed a big point of what Steve said… one might even say you “distorted” it. One of his main points is that if he had “kept more for himself” (being “greedy”) then he would have the kind of control necessary to “give it back” to the community… In other words, if he’d maintained more ownership for it, he could have helped 5A grow, even while potentially collecting a bit of money from non-crippling licenses.

I don’t buy the argument. It’s still a bit greedy to collect licensing fees irrespective of who receives them (and recall all I said to start this conflagration was essentially that Steve was greedier than I would have been if I’d “invented” 5A), and as I pointed out that is not the only alternative. A better alternative for the community is to have no licensing fees whatsoever.

As it is, companies can buy licenses from Duncan but only a couple to my knowledge have done so. Would it be so different if an individual charged the licensing fees? Maybe. It’s an untestable hypothesis, but maybe a few more companies would pay the fees if they were reasonable.

Still, there were better choices.

I didn’t miss that point. I just thought it was irrelevant to what started the conflict, fundamentally speculative, and illogical.

@vegabomb Like I said I’m on the autistic spectrum, and while I’m very “high functioning” I’m more “empathy-challenged” than most. I think…“would I personally find it rude if someone said that to me?” Since I wouldn’t, I can’t figure out why someone would.

[Gambit]

@GregP

Me, I used to be a schoolteacher. I’m used to sharing the same information multiple times under multiple situations so I haven’t gone into stealth mode yet.

Don’t you dare leave us Greg. A Greg-less forum isn’t one I want to be a part of! :-[

I can’t help but wonder what Rafiki would say about all of this:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTAg8pLHSOlldUPB1bZZGbaU95L8seGi6VfWZeU43o1wwpXjro3JA
“Tis’ in the past, lol!”

I mean at the end of the day, the patent is here and there isn’t really anything we can do. Steve admits that he would do things differently if he could, and I don’t see how needlessly antagonising him about his decision is going to help anything. Nobody is particularly happy about the way the patent has panned out, but unless we plan on pooling our money and hiring a lawyer, then we’re pretty much just spinning our wheels here.

Let he who has never made a mistake cast the first accusation. It’s all well and good taking the high road and saying “I wouldn’t have done this or that”, but unless you’ve been there as a young man with the largest yoyo company in the world waving money and a contract in your face (and no idea of the real impact of your decision), then you can’t say for sure how you’d respond.

At any rate, I’m pretty neutral on the subject since I’m a 1A guy exclusively. Last time I tried 5A I nearly broke my lightbulb and hit my sister in the face with my counterweight. Never again…

[dirty_birdy]

@Gambit

Last time I tried 5A I nearly broke my lightbulb and hit my sister in the face with my counterweight. Never again…

I understand what you’re saying here. By creating 5A style, Steve Brown single handedly smashed the myth behind the question, “Was the yoyo invented or used as a weapon of mass destruction?” I mean, geez, with all those counterweights spinning and whipping around with reckless abandon (…at least it’s that way whenever I try it…!)

If that’s not the symbol of American yoyyoing…!

db

[Totalartist]

Part of the problem is not the patent. A very small percentage of the population buys yo-yos. A very small fraction of those who buy yo-yos are 5A players, and interested in buying counterweights. That, in and of itself, contributes to the problem. I think 5A is often put on the back burner, not for the players, but business-wise. I would guess that anyone who paid the cost of the patent might have struggles recouping the cost of doing so.

I always wondered if Duncan ever recouped what it cost them to get the patent. I will never know. If I invested in a patent that was not generating a ton of money, and I was still in the hole with that investment, I might be very protective of it until the day I got out of the hole. That is all hypothetical of course, but food for thought.

[kevinm]

@S H

glad your nap helped.

@ T A

actually i was talking about industry experts, but it’s all good.

@ everyone,

can we bring a fresh dead horse in here, this one is like pounded flat.

[Rosenberg (Bring back factory vibe)]

@kevinm

@S H

glad your nap helped.

@ T A

actually i was talking about industry experts, but it’s all good.

@ everyone,

can we bring a fresh dead horse in here, this one is like pounded flat.

This image shall now be known as the symbol of American yoyoing. When you see it, you will think to yourself, “now that, my friends, is American yoyoing”

[Shai_Hulud]

@Gambit

Let he who has never made a mistake cast the first accusation. It’s all well and good taking the high road and saying “I wouldn’t have done this or that”, but unless you’ve been there as a young man with the largest yoyo company in the world waving money and a contract in your face (and no idea of the real impact of your decision), then you can’t say for sure how you’d respond.

I’m sure how I would respond. But I have a very atypical personality and political views many would consider extremist.

I do get your point though. Paraphrasing Jesus and all that. I never meant to imply that I was a better person than Steve Brown. I have many many vices and I have done things much worse than filing patents. On the other hand I’m anti-copyright and anti-IP generally, and have been for a long time. What prompted this whole thing was me saying (paraphrasing) I would have done things differently. And I would have. It’s not a claim of superiority. It’s just a fact.

[quote=“Gambit,post:129,topic:66131”]
When I first started 5A I was practicing in public (idiotic) and ended up smacking myself in the chin so hard I started bleeding (pretty badly for a yoyo wound). I just acted all nonchalant about it: “Yeah, yoyoing has its hazards” 8)

[Mrjackthepoodle]

Long drawn out 5a patent discussion and heated argument! This in my opinion has officially become the symbol of american yo-yoing.

Btw- I will be making tee shirts depicting which part of the counterweight patent side you are on, as well as “We love Steve Brown” and “Burn the Brown 5a down!” signs that will be available for purchase at the yoyo Triple Crown in Chicago this year.

I will also try to obtain an original photocopy of the patent application and host a contest where one lucky participant can take it home and hold it as a keepsake.

I just couldn’t resist ;D

[kevinm]

                                             $

all these fat cats getting rich off of yo-yo patents, maybe this should be the symbol of American yoyoing.

i don’t know much about patent laws (fool disclosure, i know nothing about patent laws!) butt i would
say that a patent on 5A seems petty compared to a patent on the actual word yo-yo, which was actually pretty awesome! i still remember the ads, “If it’s not a Duncan, it’s not a Yo-yo”. that was a pretty sweet thing while it lasted!!
there is a simple way around this dilemma for all you folks that are upset about the crippling effect the Duncan 5A patent had, before it messed everything up and stifled the yo-yo designers. just stick to playing something from the huge bounty of awesome yo-yos that were available before this mess started, say from 1999 or so.

actually that yo-yo thing might be more of a trademark issue?? i dunno, more lawyer stuff, i just know other companies sure hated calling their yo-yos ‘return tops’ !

[Shai_Hulud]

You can find the patent on google…I linked it earlier.

[Mrjackthepoodle]

@Shai_Hulud

You can find the patent on google…I linked it earlier.

Nope, an original photocopy from Duncan themselves will only do my friend. It will be like a piece of history someday.

[Shai_Hulud]

All right well put me down for $100 if we’re auctioning it off. Then I can burn it while dancing with glee.

@kevinm

“Return tops” is what they call yoyos in Canada (maybe some other countries, not sure) because the word yoyo is trademarked by somebody. Ridiculous.

[JuanHubero]

This is the true symbol of American yo-yoing, IMHO.

[Chimera]

@Shai_Hulud

because the word yoyo is trademarked by somebody. Ridiculous.

Duncan also have trademarks on “Butterfly” and “Imperial” in relation to yo-yos, which is why we now have names like “Organic” and “Concave”. They actually came after us (the yoyomuseum.com site) to make us change the names when identifying the yo-yo shape. They actually wanted us to change HISTORICAL PDFs to remove any occurrences of “Butterfly” that weren’t specifically about Duncan products - that was where I drew the line.

edit : edited to correct factual error.