Yeah, I definitely feel it should be just a tad larger in diameter.
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As a modder I can’t answer this without you all putting a grain of salt next to my answer as I change my setup on a whim and play different styles based on my mood.
With that said I like a modern responsive that has a really nice blasted finish for palm grinds, comfortable in the hand and slim with rounded edges, more on the lighter side, I really love a slight dimple or spike for pull starts.
Otherwise I like the weight ring idea I would love if the lip remains to slot them in but I would say don’t worry about how it plays with them and heck don’t even include them in the final product just link to where you can find them and leave the potential for those that want it. Just make the base yoyo shine as is.
Similarly for the bearing I love the small mr85 bearing in the rbc and Origen it reminds me of a kk bearing in a raider and other slim small bearing yo-yos of the era.
I love the b bearing in the kasm and various modern loopers
I think an mr85 workhorse would be really cool and hit that retro feel of the yo-yos we grew up with in a newer package but I also know the d bearing works. I see the love of the respawn that has it and Jake has perfected over time. The ZGRT mijos and tio and albrije all utilize the d bearing really effectively and are amazing modern responsives. I think it’s a great middle ground as I feel a c bearing modern responsive almost leans more toward string tricks and doc pops responsive 5a style more and the newer mr85 and kk bearings of old lend themselves better toward 0a and looping. A d bearing kind of sits in the middle giving you a bit of that 0a/1a playability I think we are looking for.
All that said if Jake wants to play with designing it toward an mr85 I won’t complain I think that would be really neat and further differentiate it from the respawn but I don’t think it’s necessary unless jake just wants to experiment.
Response I like shallower but larger pads for a responsive personally but that’s all preference and can be adjusted simply by changing string thickness or breaking out the silicone and doing your own response.
As I said I’m going to tinker I’ll add a wide bearing and take out a pad and play this sucker unresponsive and I’ll toss a rope in and shims with a thinner bearing for a looping yoyo. Or I’ll toss some blanks in and play it like a fixie. My silly experiment ls though shouldn’t be the goal let those that fiddle fiddle and experiment and just make a great yoyo that does the thing.
Sorry for the wall of text
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Seeing as we are also going to do an unresponsive I say we lean into the extremes on each yoyo and don’t try to fit some middle ground
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I agree with this. Last thing you want is a master of none.
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This is one of the reasons I felt that a weight should be decided on and to lose the rings. Wouldn’t want someone saying, “It’s too light without the rings, but with all the ring choices it’s too heavy.” Option paralysis is real, we see it with guitar gear all the time. A company comes out with a product that does 100 things, and even if it does it really great, having so many options end up making it a product that doesn’t end up getting used for long.
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I brought up mr85 during design and it seemed like Jake would be down if it’s REALLY what everyone wanted but he would rather do the D guts because he has the response so dialed already.
I could also be remembering incorrectly but I think that’s what happened.
I can see both sides really. Clearly the d bearing response is primo based on my experience with the workhorse. I haven’t tried respawn but I assume it’s the same.
On the other hand, mr85 is a really nice feeling play.
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I’d vote D bearing. MR85 is just too small. Plus it would almost guarantee another round of Prototypes. We wouldn’t want to just run with a new design with a bearing that Jake has never used before.
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I personally really like the D-bearing because it adds a little more capability to tricks. I love my RBC but I would like something that gives me more of those RBC feels that falls a little further into the modern responsive realm, which I think is kind of where the Workhorse is at. I think the other issue is it will make that gap have to become greatly smaller, and we’re already kind of trying to figure out how best to get to the 4mm as is. That being said, if the consensus ends up being for the MR85, I wouldn’t be sad about it either.
Maybe down the road we can try to initiate a 3rd design after the unresponsive for an MR85 specific? Ground up with that primarily being in mind. Instead of the RBC it can be the “White Blood Cell” or the “Bubonic Plague” or the “Artery Clogger,” “Ibuprofen,” “Gel Capsule,” something that will throw a callback to the RBC with a Boomer Club twist, haha.
I think if we do that as well, that helps further give a direction for what we want the Workhorse to be from a 0A/1A standpoint, knowing there will be something more MR85 based down the road potentially.
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I’ve seen a lot of what people feel and I mirror much of it. And after some initial experimentation I have some thoughts to share. I agree with many who said that a modern responsive seems to work best as a capable middle ground. For me, it would offer ease and enjoyability in performing middle ground 1a style tricks. Obviously there will be tricks that you are just better off moving to an unresponsive to pull off, and that’s ok. At the same time you want it to be able to pull off your stall and more 0a oriented tricks as well. So middle ground makes it difficult to operate in an amazing way at the far ends of the spectrum; unresponsive vs very responsive tricks.
With some of the thoughts that have been laid out so far concerning the MR85. I think this Workhorse would be insane with an MR85 setup…however, this would, as stated, create the need for more prototype work. With that said though, there is certainly much potential in the D bearing too. “As Is” with the 5 mm bearing you get a yo-yo that is quite capable as far as 1a goes. Now…this will be different for everyone and I am no kind of expert who throws magical combos that push the boundaries of man and machine but to put a benchmark that most anyone could understand on it, I would say this. If you can throw a double or nothing and then roll out of it to trapeze and toss it up to return to your hand, and the yo-yo can do this without snagging on the roll or hesitating on the return…that’s what I’m after. As is, the Workhorse can offer that, along with the type of feel that everyone is familiar with in many popular responsive the community is familiar with. Here is where my experimentation begins. I’ll start another post for that.
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We also talked about what is this compared to today on the market and the current d bearing design slots it in with the mijo and respawn while making it an mr85 might make it compete with the upcoming metal harbinger from mk1 x spinworthy which I also plan to get as well as the workhorse.
All in all I think we stay d bearing make our unres throw and then if both are successful and Jake is willing we look at an mr85 based yoyo as a workhorse 2 (x) or something.
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Some of you have followed my adventures in tuning other throws I have, but for those that have not, I feel a bit of explanation as to what I’m doing and why would help at the outset of this. It may be a bit long but I’m trying to keep it in one post. Back in the day when people would “crank” their Raiders in order to get the response they wanted, what they were doing is carefully tightening them together, hoping you’d get to the response you wanted before you broke something. A lot of we Raiders were broken and turned into trash. The goal was to bring the halves close together in order to get the response system to bite the string just right. This is the route I employ to get the play I like from a yo-yo. So that a bearing can be used dry instead of lubed. (If you wonder why, go and slather some lube into the bearing of your favorite unresponsive yo-yo and note the differences)
So far in experimenting with a 3mm and 4mm bearing, this is what I’ve found. The pads in the Workhorse are HUGE. These pads allow for a 5mm bearing to offer nice 1a style response but still be snappy enough to hit stalls and such. As you start drawing them closer together their behavior changes all together. This is why “as is” the Workhorse will appeal to the greatest number of people, because “as is” it’s quite capable and flexible at the same time. Not to mention it is insanely comfortable in the hand and just feels “right”.
So… as to start to draw these halves closer together the response of these pads begins to become very aggressive very quickly. So far I have not been able to pin down an adjustment which offers reliable and consistent results. It has been too aggressive or non responsive. I have gotten to the most agreeable spot so far with the 4mm bearing and an Executive Class Poly/nylon string. More experimentation will be happening but I wanted to put out there where it was at present. One bit that I would be very comfortable floating out there is the I feel like the current setup with standard 19mm pads would still be an amazing player but allow for greater flexibility for someone who may want to perform modifications. For now I’ll leave off here. I’ll also add that, since I filled my posts before the 4mm bearing got here, I can’t say whether this will fit stock without post modifications. I did screw a 4mm A bearing in mine before filing and it seemed like it would be ok but I can’t say for sure. As such, @Son-of-Morris agreed to receive the other 4mm bearing I bought to see if it will work on the stock setup. The End.
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Workpony, perhaps? Because of the smaller bearing
Or Lil’ Sebastian (if you know, you know)
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The Poney Express if you will.
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This has a very nice ring to it.
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After allowing these pads to break in a bit they seemed to ease up just the right amount. I came back to a setup I’ve tried a few times and now it’s performing perfectly. Dry 4mm and a single .01 shim strung with Executive Class and its perfect at present. I’ll now throw the crap out of it and see if it stays there.
Edit: I’m thinking I still had some factory grease in the bearing because the bearing started singing and it started behaving like an absolute dream.
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Bearing and Weight wise - the closest competitors are the El Mijo Metal/Poly Carbonate and the Deeper State. Has some similarities to the Zeekio Slim Jim.
I believe it is too heavy to compare to the RBC, Harbinger, Weekender, and Deep State.
This yoyo has a ton going for it. I honestly think if we could Drop the Weight closer to 50 grams, and redistribute a little of the weight towards the rims, this thing would outrun all of them.
That is a pretty hefty list of competitors/players.
I love its current representation as a “Modern Responsive”. This is where the waters get a little muddy. Some perform better toward the 0A side (MR85 Bearings) some perform better towards the 1A side.
This hits the sweet spot right in the middle.
I know the idea of Jack of All trades is frowned upon. But I argue this “IS” what we are looking for. This one yoyo in its Stock Form plays both sides very well. Wouldn’t this be the definition of a Modern Responsive?
Not “Can” but “Does” both Styles in one product.
I can’t wait to hear more thoughts and experiences as the PIF makes its way around.
Note: Weight Rings will NOT be a part of the final production. This was a for science experiment to see how the Yoyo would play at different weights. I love that even though it will not come with weight rings, it still has the ability to utilize them (In two different positions!).
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A Mijo with longer spin times and a little weight reduction would be the chefs kiss. I love my Mijo dearly, but on occasion it can feel like a weight on the end of the string. That’s where the RBC and Weekender excel. They feel like I’m tossing around a cloud of cotton candy on the end of a Peruvian silk line.
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The El Tijo may be right up your alley then…
I know we are fairly close, so if we meet up, you can give it a try.
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I’ve heard it’s very similar to the poly which I own. I do wish the poly had a bit more stability to it, but the weight feels great.
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