I wouldn’t say I hate pure V shapes but I also find them the least interesting overall.
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Definitive that I don’t understand, yeah.
Please point to where I make any claim other than that I do not get why seemingly similar models are so popular. I make sure to state that the people who like them are knowledgeable, and that there must be some legitimate reason why
How are people reading this to be “organics are bad. Every one is exactly the same. V’s are obviously better, and I’m better for liking them. Im not asking for anyone’s opinion/explanation.”
I made none of these arguments at all. Markmont seemed to understand what I said, and provixed a great response.
Heh, well, I’m certainly not at the stage where I’m looking for yoyos that are “interesting” to play. Now maybe the community here is dominated by experienced players who don’t get satisfaction from long spin times and high stability, but there are also those few (like me) who aren’t there yet and won’t be looking for “interesting” or “challenging” throws any time soon.
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Eternalmetal - it’s def bout what you prefer and what your intentions are. That’s why I specified that above - diff between tryna maximize on what you can get out of throwing vs just wanting to do it for a less involved reason like casual play of a few tricks. Nothing is expressed as a mandatory, only as a heavily suggested mode of operation for those wantin to get real real nice in a certain lane and experience the dubs that come with it when done ‘this’ way (see above for multitude of illustrious dubs)
And again it’s def anyones choice to roll with a less traditional setup to learn on, but the results can get funky (see metaphoric examples on skiing and biking above). If it’s what you enjoy and prefer, that’s fine. But that just doesn’t negate the facts of what is resulting from picking one setup over the other.
I also above said specifically that I take this serious : D
Also per the age comment - made a suggestion above of trying a Henrys Viper (since it’s rubber and it’s what I used when didn’t want the pain of plastic Raiders).
The literal most fundamental reason why I personally suggest the as they’ve been dubbed here ‘less stable less sleeping’ organic throws for beginners, is because this is what you are learning the most important 2 tricks on - gravity pull and sleeper. Do this on a beginner responsive throw and get that nice, and you will have a better throw for it. You will literally ‘feel’ all your tricks in an entirely different way otherwise. It’s really as simple as that. Is it as fun? Maybe not to many, but that wasn’t the whole point of the justification in the first place. The whole point I’ve been trying to get across is the why’s and their pros/cons. No point in debating preference - preference is preference : D
Gravity Pull, then sleeper. That’s pretty much ‘the’ order of learning tricks normally. A debatable second trick would be forward pass. If your throw automatically sleeps, then half the ‘trick’ of ‘Sleeper’, you aren’t even having to acquire any ability for. Also yes - your now learning a bind, before a multitude of other basics. Long story short - it’s a bit funky.
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I have always preferred organics. I don’t really get this argument of not being good enough for organics. Maybe it is because of when I started throwing. The yoyo demanded I played smooth and was carful with every movement. I am glad I started when I did because I wouldn’t be as a smoother and precise if I only threw modern yoyos. I don’t feel like I am in tune with a v shape as much. I want everyone to throw what they like but saying you aren’t good enough is limiting yourself. I have never felt hindered by an organic or lesser capable yoyo. I have learned almost every trick on an organic and will continue to do so. The precision needed helps me learn the trick correctly the first time instead of having to relearn it later.
The fhz has forever shaped my play and what I want out of a yoyo.
Edit. Glad to see you on here Markmont. You will always be an inspiration to me.
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I second this completely. I’m sure I speak for everyone when I say we’re very happy to have you hanging out here. Especially with the awesome insight you have to offer, as demonstrated by your great posts in thIs thread
I really hope you’ll join the conversation here more often. Nothing but respect for your continuing contributions to this community.
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Hey the pleasures all mines. It’s a bit tricky keeping up with all the different social platforms but I’ll be trying to double-dutch into YYE when I can. Lot of focus has been placed on iG since I’ve been filming a lot for Fully Freestyle and Markmont. Formulas (shameless plug), but I’m finally getting around to a bit of a better balance across more platforms. I’m too long winded to handle all these damn platforms 
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I think a few people here like @zslane and a few others are misunderstanding a little and thinking that you need to be skilled and experienced to really enjoy organics.
I don’t think this is true at all, it really is just a preference thing. I enjoy playing with organics and undersized yoyos here and there because the feel is definitely different, but also because it does whip my technique and flow back into shape. There’s been periods where I’ve only used an organic or undersized yoyo for two or three weeks to really get comfortable with, connect with, and understand them.
In the end though I’m not a big fan. They have their time and place but I choose high performance Vs over quirky organics. They play better, I enjoy them more, and although I’ve definitely ran across multiple “generic and boring” Vs, I do still reaaallyyy enjoy the feel of many Vs. A potentially huge factor as well is my style of play just doesn’t fit with organics and while I can change my play style to be more organic friendly,
I’d rather just do more extreme tricks with my Vs.
While experience and skill can help with the enjoyment of organics, it doesn’t mean you will automatically like them if you’re world class and have been throwing for 15 years. Also doesn’t mean you’ll dislike them if you’ve been throwing for a few months.
I’ve been throwing for over 5 years. Not super long not super short. I’m not a great player, but I wouldn’t say I’m mediocre either. I don’t like organics for the most part. And I know people who have less experience and less skill who love organics and I know people that are far better and have been throwing far longer that aren’t a big fan of organics. I can think of a few members on this very forum that haven’t been throwing for too long and just casual throwers but love organics, hate Vs
Also, to be completely honest. For those periods where I did just throw organics or undersized, afterwards when I started using my Vs again, it just made me realize how much I LOVE and MISS my competition Vs
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very glad to see I’m not the only person who likes learning new tricks on an organic throw!
i’d like to add that since an organic throw is the most comfortable of shapes (to me personally, in hand), i’m usually able to practice tricks for a longer period of time without being bugged with tiny (and probably not deal-breaking) nuances like adjusting my grip.
Markmont Classic, Grail and 2WEI are my choices for learning new tricks, occasionally I’ll use the Duncan Raptor too.
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What responsive would you recommend to someone who learned on a an unresponsive yoyo and is looking to get a new feel and better flow? (this person is me)
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Depends on your price and preference of material and weight. For plastic I would recommend a slim bearing First Base. For metal I would go with a Markmont. Classic on factory lubed bearing with ultralight side effects.
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Actually, I completely agree that it is a preference thing. My observation isn’t that you have to be more experienced to enjoy organics, but rather that more experienced players are the ones who tend to have this weird love/preference for them.
The only reason I correlate skill level with a tendency to like or dislike organics is because I find that as a beginner, the added difficulties imposed by a less stable yoyo only get in the way of what I am trying to learn. I am not trying to “clean up” my technique at this stage. I leave that for after I’ve learned the basics (you gotta learn to walk before you can run). Until that time, I won’t be itching to play yoyos that add difficulty to what I’m doing, as that would only frustrate me to the point of wanting to give up.
And while throwing something more organic from my collection is sometimes a nice change of pace, I always gravitate back to my Vs and Hs. I get that “Ahhhhh…” comfort feeling whenever I go back to a VTWO or a Hummingbird.
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I’ve been teaching my sister how to yoyo lately, and although she’d have a much easier time hitting tricks on something new, I have her learning on an old responsive YYJ.
When you see someone throw smooth like butter, you can bet they didn’t learn on an unresponsive bimetal.
Hell, I learned all the basics (brain twister, double or nothing, trapeze) on a fixed axle looping yoyo.
It might be tough at first, but like @Markmont said, there’s so much that your hands learn from that expierence that you can’t replacate with an unresponsive.
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Sounds like my grandparents telling me how all that walking to school in blizzard conditions without any boots “built character”. I didn’t buy it then, and I ain’t buyin’ it now (in any of its forms). 
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Ha, it’s honestly exactly that!
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Well, the “start with responsive” part is true, at least. I do think it’s kind of a bummer that there are so many unresponsive choices out there and a teeeny tiny number of responsive choices in comparison.
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I’m probably an unusual case in that when I started getting into all this last July, I already knew how to throw a gravity pull, sleeper, forward pass, and do simple tricks like Walk the Dog, Around the World, and Rock the Baby from when I was a kid. I really didn’t need the “training wheels” aspect of responsives anymore.
In retrospect, I think that instead of learning the brain twister mount (and the Brain Twister trick), and the trapeze mount on a responsive yoyo like I did, I would tell my past self to skip that and learn to bind immediately and just use unresponsive yoyos right from the start. And I would probably make the same recommendation to anyone starting yoyoing again as an adult after having already learned the basics in their past.
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Same here. Except when I got back into it last year, I went straight to a metal unresponsive (YYF Canon). I grew up with Butterflys and brain yoyos where you had to work for the sleeper, and was absolutely enamored with 1A when I saw a video on it last year. I have since bought wooden fixed axles, looping yoyos, and a Deep State because I like to change it up, but I don’t see them as necessary training tools if you just want to throw 1A.
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That might translate to quicker instant gratification, but having done this for over 10 years I can tell you that’s certainly not the best path if the goal is to eventually get pretty good.
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