Some of what I write might be redundant and scrambled but here we go.
Lemme first preface this by saying, that it is a ‘good’ thing that folks prop up organics because it’s literally where a LOT of what we have today stems from. It’s pretty important that organics stay heavily in the fold or too much in the throw game and throw progression will be impacted as a result. And I’m saying this having watched whats changed and not changed over the years as a result of a variety of factors.
I’d go on the record to say ‘most’ organics actually play rather different from one another, even though there are a lot of them in existence. If you can’t feel the difference between them, then it’s either a matter of having not thrown enough cumulative hours to feel the distinct differences or your bearing to string to pad setup is too similar from throw to throw. Hand sensitivity is real. Responsive to semi-responsive setup on flat bearing will give you the most distinct diff from one throw to the next. Concave and centering bearings lend themselves to normalizing the play style of literally any throw. They stabilize/center the throws weight distribution so you aren’t feeling as much of the throws actual characteristics. Thick string kicks back less and generally gives you more feel and control over the throws movement and speed where as thinner strings may spin longer from less contact but have less feel. Theres a lot of trade offs.
Organics yes make you work a bit harder because they are more prone to tilting, but thats kind of the point and the benefit at the same time. If a yoyo is overly stable, then you aren’t going to be able to manipulate its speed and movement as easily but will get the added benefit of extra spin time ie which is generally favorable for stage performance or competition. A throw thats ‘too’ unstable will be very very ‘fun’ for the first half of its spin time in a throw duration, then get really sensitive to nudges and hand straightness in the 2nd half. I try to strike a balance with the throws I make and throws I use. Right between stable enough and not too stable.
I could talk about this for days but this is getting long winded. Hope this helps. But as a quick test to start to get a better feel of the differences - set your organics up the same way on flat bearing with a relatively thick string. This is a good way to actualize the difference. You don’t have to like this setup or even keep using it - but it will def allow you to really feel the diff.
The tilting that happens on organics is often times viewed as a fault or negative to organics in general - when in fact its more of a lack on the player. Players throwing anywhere from 00 to 03 on Renegades, YYJs, Freehands etc had to maintain very clean technique to keep those throws from tilting. This is what prompted smoothness and then eventually flow over the years. This prob started to really come into a fruitin between 99 - 00 when folks like Cappy, McBride, Gary, Escolar, Doc started to level the game up. When you get a sense of what that feel ‘feels’ like, ie how good it can feel to rreealllyyy control all aspects of your throws movement - thennnnn you can really see ‘why’ folks rock with organics. They are generally a lot more comfy in hand and in catch compared to vs as well. Until you can comfortably jam on organic w/o feeling irritated from the tilt on lesser stability, then your def not going to enjoy it. It legit has to be worked towards. Just like how most instruments are flat out not gonna be fun until you learn how to really play them to their full potential.
Also - when people name top 5 throws or whatever, you have to take into consideration that throws aren’t always meant to be cross-compared with whats current. Some throws get their props because of how good they are/were when they came out. Or what additionally they set into motion at their time of release.
Hallelujah There we go. Thank you. This is what I was asking for lol. Idk how that got turned into me definitively stating that organics are all the exact same and they’re total garbage along with anyone who likes them
So essentially I’m sacrificing more exact control over speed and direction for longer spin time? That makes sense as to why someone who’s a better thrower would appreciate the increased handling while not needing every last bit of spin like someone less experienced would
And ya, that was a great bit of info there man, very well written and easily understood. I appreciate it
Yea that’s a good way of looking at it TeeJay. I actually don’t use a ‘full’ hard throw when I jam because I don’t need the modern day spin for days duration. 40 seconds is good enough to me. Plus I don’t need the yoyo rocketing into my knuckles either if I mess up bad enough lol. Can also bang out a ‘lot’ with just a pull start so yea - when spin time becomes less of a requirement in your throwing - the loss isn’t missed. The feeling you get in having that control in your hands becomes addictive.
Also to note - theres a lot of diff flow variations that you can mess with at each stage of your throws spin rpms. When you have low rpm, this lends itself to a totally diff way of jaming (especially if your setup is already responsive), so long as you get control enough in your hands. Let’s you get rreeallll loose when you can kinda let your tensity of mount follow the throws natural movement. Kinda like riding moguls on a ski hill. When you get accustomed to letting your knees and hips react to the hill variation, while maintaining hip to head stable placement, you get a ton of control. It’s the same idea.
Also, much more important to note. That tilt is correctable. You don’t have to have a full on straight aligned throw orientation at all times. when you shift either your right or left and forward, the throw tilts in diff directions. You can use that to your advantage. You’ll notice a lot of players might just bind the yoyo after getting too off plane or after getting a nudge. If you use some good pinwheels or rolls just right, you can correct that tilt almost instantly. Having THAT control at your disposal is a gggoooooodddd feeling. Kinda like when you first get good at driving stick shift in a car or being able to jam on a fixed gear bike vs geared bike.
As an advanced skiier vs an intermediate yoyo thrower, this really speaks to me. That and the manual car example, you definitely have more control over the vehicle if you know how to properly rev match and such, whereas with an automatic you are a slave to the brain of the transmission.
I can tell by this discussion that organic yoyos are definitely not for learning new tricks, but to enjoy the tricks that you already know like the back of your hand. As an intermediate thrower I already have a couple tricks that I land 100% with zero focus required. Add in some additional nuances from an organic throw, and you feel less on autopilot and more in manual mode. Am I understanding this correctly?
Sort of… maybe for you at your current skill level/ exposure.
To continue to draw off of the manual car analogy:
Does it make sense if you already know the ins-and-outs of driving a manual transmission to steer clear of new roads that you’re not familiar with until you have learned that new territory while driving an automatic transmission?
That’s pretty much how I feel about it as well. Which goes a long way towards revealing the general experience level of the organics-loving segment of this community.
I think a newbie can get a misleading impression about organics from all the gushing love they get from the long-time players here. Given how old and foundational they are in the history of yoyoing, it is natural to think they are somehow easier to play/learn with, when that is not at all the case (at least not in my experience).
The love of Organics should develop… wait for it… Organically.
There is no series of steps or experience level that you need to reach in order to unlock that. If you want to like them, you will probably like them. If you want to remain reserved about them, you will probably remain reserved about them.
And who knows, you might try to appreciate them really hard, and come to discover that you just don’t like them at all. That’s totally possible too.
Well, I like the idea of them, on many levels. I like their clean, classic aesthetics. I just don’t like how unstable they tend to be, at least not right now. I like my Markmont Classic because, as anyone who has thrown one knows, it is extremely stable and performant for an organic. It is what you might call a gateway organic for someone like me.
I figure I will one day come to really like organics too, but I’m just not there yet.
What you said about bearings is so so important. Especially if you started in the past 5 years, most throws have shipped with string centering bearings. Back when I started in 09 to when I took a hiatus around 2011 or 2012 it was very rare to see string centering bearings come stock, except with dif yoyos, and some yyf throws around when the CT came out. Now the market is flooded with them, and I think that’s a big reason why a lot of yoyos feel the same now, and why organic throws are a big calling to people again.
Edit: small bearings too. There’s a little resurgence of them coming back in terms of the canary, quail, etc, but back in the day there were a lot of smaller bearing options instead of the onslaught of the C bearing, and these smaller bearings just added to that difference in spin times and stability that organics had. Companies like spyy and hspin had most of their older throws as a D size bearing, and most of the throws from when Mark was alluding to were also a bearings (Duncan’s, etc)
I would actually love it if all my yoyos played and felt exactly the same (say, like a VTWO), with the only thing differentiating them being aesthetics. That’s because I’m not looking for varying play experience, I’m looking for the most stable, long-spinning platform for learning all the beginning 1A tricks. Of course I know that’s not possible since things like shape have a major impact on performance and feel. I’m just saying that what some folks see as a problem–yoyos that all feel and play extremely similar to each other–I see as a virtue.
But… what’s the point? Manufacturers go to extraordinary lengths to design yoyos to feel unique… Especially one drop. Why collect yo-yos at all? Why not just use one yoyo that you like?
I suppose it is all down to personal preference when it comes to the shapes of yoyos.
I think organics mostly have the reputation of being old school and tricky to do things on, but is that a bad thing?
I love using my Woolly Marmot for honing tricks on. It’s high walled and undersized so as you can imagine, on a poor throw it won’t give you much time to do a trick. Since using the WM though, I think my tricks have gotten a lot smoother and consistent. I’d recommend using a similar throw for ironing out any kinks.
I do own a variety of shapes and sizes and I think everyone should try a bit of each shape to see what they prefer.
The Peak 2 is my EDC throw and the last few tricks I’ve learnt have been using it.
