Yes and no! High school drama sucks… Being a Junior can also be difficult sometimes…
softies unite! The only difference is I’m homseschooled. And pshaw that’s no biggy! UUUUUUUUUUUUJUUUUNITE!!
Me too.
Whoah the bus. 
When you share facts and quotes like that, the implied message is that they support your opinion. And I think they do… but I wasn’t making a judgment on you, just defending what I think of as “good education”. And let me just say, the rest of this post is just as impersonal! I harbour absolutely no negative feelings or even vibes about your opinion! Education in both the self-taught and formalized ways are areas of particular interest for me as a former teacher who loves learning for himself.
Einstein’s opinion and witticism on education is not a “fact”. It’s his take on education.
No no… on the contrary… this kind of education is deplorable. I don’t support it.
Yes, but note that he was attempting to get into more school. The post-secondary institution provided the peers, resources, and education that he wanted access to in order to become the scientific mind that he was. It’s debatable that he would have been the man we know if he hadn’t done that work to get into a system of post-secondary education.
Making money is not a sign of intelligence or education, though. Rather, the ability to accumulate wealth seems strongly tied to particular personality traits such as incredible ambition and (I don’t mean this in a judging way! It takes all kinds in the world!) narcissism. To single-mindedly create something of value and sell it for vast sums of money takes an unshakeable belief in the self. It doesn’t necessarily take education or even intelligence, though I strongly suspect (and will give benefit of the doubt) that most billionaires are also actually highly intelligent.
The key word is “seems”. That’s not my belief at all. I believe that the educational system ideally (even though it fails us too often!) provides us with the tools to teach ourselves. It’s incredibly easy to forget that once upon a time, a teacher helped us learn how to reach logical deductions so that we’re able to create our own learning. It’s not necessary for this to happen, but it sure helps.
You’re preaching to the choir here. Just because I didn’t write an essay about my entire viewpoint on the educational system (I wasn’t actually interested in a multi-volume debate!) doesn’t mean I don’t share the exact beliefs you stated above. However, the difference is that while it’s easy to say that learning “can” happen and (in my opinion, even SHOULD happen) more often OUTSIDE of the institution, the institution (I’m counting home school here… which is still formal education for the most part and prepares you for GED) it’s a stretch to say that formal education as a whole is an invalid or unecessary system. For a great many people, the system is necessary as a catalyst… it sparks the passion that enables self-teaching, and often provides the tools for the same. I mentioned that Einstein is a rarity because he is… and so are the kinds of people who can teach themselves both the tools and the information. In other words, many of the same people who might be willing to say “the education system sucks!” probably acquired tools from that system that they’re not recognizing or acknowledging.
I didn’t miss the points related to the quote being from 1888, but I deleted the paragraph because it seemed like it would incite unwelcome debate. Guess I didn’t get my wish there!! I believe what the quote actually shows is that education is at odds with conformity. The laboring classes are dissatisfied because education shows them a world they don’t necessarily have access to. They were born to a time in which you were likely to continue with the family trade, not pursue a passion. There’s another quote: “Ignorance is bliss.” The laboring classes would be much happier being ignorant instead of educated… they wouldn’t know what they’re missing. So while the goal of the educational system may have been to create conformity, it was failing. Once you learn that the world is round, it’s hard to continue believing that it’s flat.
It’s definitely lacking. I didn’t claim otherwise; I’m simply saying that there’s still value in the educational system. When I was in my Bachelor’s of Education almost every text, technique, and mentoring teacher encouraged unleashing creativity within the students, not chaining them to a desk full of worksheets. When the system creating educators is pumped about letting students be individuals, mandating (not just encouraging, but MANDATING) a diverse approach to teaching in order to accommodate a variety of learning styles (the hands-on learners have been held down far too long and the college of teachers identified this ages ago)… Anyhow, when you’re aware of how classrooms SHOULD be (even if they’re not) and how things are starting to come around that way, it’s hard to hold onto my childhood view of school. I’ve seen it in practice. I’ve put it into practice. And I’ve seen the results.
I have also seen the classrooms where it’s still the same old junk, and I fear for my own children being in those classes. Those classrooms are still the majority in high school, mainly because the institution doesn’t know how to teach Calculus in a way that can encourage individual expression. I mean, calculus is calculus. I’m sure there are ways, but you can see how in high school it becomes harder to individualize.
But that doesn’t mean I think that the system is the same as it was in the 60s, or even the 80s. As old teachers retire and the new guard comes up, change is inevitable. Kids who hated school and wanted to become teachers anyhow (to do a better job of it) are coming in. Just as all social change takes time and the impact is hard to trace as it moves along at a snail’s pace… so is it hard to spot and identify the wonderful ways that education is becoming what it should be.
They really need to get rid of standardized testing, too… but then, talk to the statisticians about why it’s important to have some sort of standard baseline. It’ll be an ugly conversation.
Again, though, I do believe there are an increasing number of teachers who instead of “teaching something,” ask students to explore things on their own.
This is not just some “good” teachers out there… it’s the standard way that teachers are trained. In my humble teacher’s college of a few hundred students, not a one of us walked out of there without knowing that the best way for a student to learn is for them to do it with intrinsic motivation, to be the ones to discover and create knowledge, and where possible for them to share it back to other students or to the teacher. It’s standard stuff. It’s “the way it’s done” in Ontario. Every teacher coming out of teacher’s college is taught that “Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.”
There are obstacles to that lofty goal, and some of those obstacles include the students themselves. You cannot possibly fathom how hard it is to light a fire in someone who actually WANTS to be as a bucket being filled. I’ve even been asked by students, “aren’t YOU supposed to teach me?” with regards to self-selected research projects. In part, that’s still a failing of the institution because the students have been ingrained by somebody (usually the parents, not the teachers, but it can be the teachers) with the idea that they must absorb lectures rather than teach themselves, and it’s how they feel comfortable learning. But discovering the blame for that attitude doesn’t help out when you’re finding ways for students to think for themselves and they don’t want to.
George Carlin is great. 
I may just do that.
–
To sum up my opinion… it’s just that I’m optimistic about the educational system. I don’t think it’s naive; I’ve been on the front lines, teaching kids and adults around the world and of various socio-economic backgrounds. You want a hard job, try lighting the fire of education on a First Nations Reservation. Ain’t easy. I’m definitely not saying that you have to be a teacher to have an opinion on the system or even be informed about the state of the system. I value your opinion and I see that a lot of research and thought has gone into it.
I just think that it’s easy to put on blinders and see only the parts that suck and you want changed. I’m just trying to encourage looking at the strides educators are taking and understand that so much of what we hate about school is still a remnant of the old guard maintaining a position in the school. And as a bonus: it’s parents as much as anybody else who are passing along a view of what school “should” be.
Me, I like being self-taught. Almost all of my skills are self-taught. But I can take an inventory of the skills knowledge that “the institution” gave me, and it’s an impressive list. I’m not willing to discount that because of the many blemishes the system may have.
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No way I am overly excited too!!! But it’s my kids not I returning lol.
I love my summer. Being able to sit outside and watch nature grow and change. But I do stuff around the house by choice so I don’t feel extremely lazy, even though I run 2-3 miles a day and play on my highschool soccer team.
I’m excited for school too though
and by nature you mean video games, right? Jk jk. I’m sure you’re very productive.
As for school/seasons changing here’s a funny story:
Last summer people always said ‘few, I’m ready for the cold weather again’
And I was like
‘Man that’s what people say every time the season changes “I’m ready for the ____ weather”. But I still want the heat.’
And this year was no different. “Can’t wait for that cold! I’m over the heat!”
Except this time, I am ready for the winter too!
So basically, my opinion only changed after a long time…
Much less funny than it is ‘well… I know that happened now…’
I haven’t played video games in while honestly. I guess my parents always telling me it’s a waste of time finally started sinking in
Finally someone understands!
Ha ha… I wouldn’t throw you under a bus. I don’t have a dog in this fight, like you do, as they say, but don’t think I hold that against you. I guess you could think I would imply others words are mine, but they’re not. Some I agree with, some not so much, but their ideas are just that, their ideas. I’m not interested in convincing anyone of anything or trying to win anyone over to my points of view or life experience. I just wanted to give quotes I feel may be worth others thinking about, not agreeing with or taking as their own, but to think critically and freely about for themselves. I would not make a judgment on you either by any means. That’s part of being a free and critical thinker, you must be willing to stand alone and not get caught up in emotions, which once studied (emotions), you realize are only thought created and can only distract from the truth.
“Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions.” – Einstein
“Truth is not to be found by anybody who has not got an abundant sense of humility.” - Gandhi
“Do not crave to know the views of others, nor base your intent thereon. To think independently for oneself is a sign of fearlessness.” - Gandhi
This has nothing to do with the quote by Einstein and is taken out of context by using it as such. I wasn’t saying his personal experience was fact other than that fact. It has to do with the truth and facts of a system that has failed millions of students and produced dumber students over the decades and not smarter ones. Those are the facts I was talking about in the paragraph it was stated in and they are facts whether we like them or not.
No one in their right and sane mind would imho.
Right and even after that education he still stated what he thought which is opposite to what you are trying to say it afforded him. See the other quotes of his below, he was very clear about what he thought about formal education and he didn’t praise it. He has said many times that his creative thinking and the freedom he gave himself to think ‘crazy’ ideas is what led to his discoveries, not what he learned in schools. Much of what he learned was from ‘thinking’ of ideas himself and then figuring out how to test those ideas and theories. This is how he came up with the theory or relativity! The same as Newton came up with gravity by ‘thinking’ about why an apple fell on his head. He wasn’t a thinker because a school or teacher told him to be, he was a thinker because that was his nature, by birth and life. This type of thinking is what is important to these fellow’s, not institutionalized forced education.
”It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education.” –Einstein
“I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious.” –Einstein
“I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.” –Einstein
Just wanted to make sure you didn’t think the education system produced the only money makers in the world. Most billionaires are that due to incredible greed too which also fuels their ambition. Else they would’ve helped others and not created products with slave labor and the likes and ripped the consumer off by charging hundreds of times more than what something was actually worth.
We learned how to create and reach our own logical deductions through personal experience and life just fine for thousands of years without schools and teachers. Else our species would not have survived. Many species teach their young, they just don’t try to claim credit for it as it’s just part of their survival. Nor is it forced, formal, or based on a system derived by another who thinks they know best for all. It helps and hurts. I would say millions more students were damaged and ruined by teachers than enlightened by them. There are more stupid teachers than smart ones in my experience. I’ve been to many schools over multiple states growing up. In my experience they all were the same crap with the same crap teachers outside of the 1 of hundreds. I do give credit to them, the 1 out of 100, but they also taught me the view that school was a joke and most teachers were nothing more than babysitters and egotistical children themselves. Again, this is what my personal experience has proven to be true.
Me either! LOL. I never said it is invalid or unnecessary, I said its main point is to conform students, not educate them. Big difference and where you are again adding your own ideas into to what is said when that is not what was said or meant. I don’t think the system is at all necessary as a catalyst, I think being born is. I came with all that curiosity and passion loaded into my heart and mind as a child, no one but life itself gave it to me. Not a school system or a teacher. The mystery of life is all I needed and the system of education was a major drawback to the natural passion and curiosity I was born with. The educational system I’ve been a part of and seen is much more interested in trying to force you to become an egomaniac, to conform to childish ideas of good and bad, black and white, much more so than freedom, exploration, and finding your own way and individuality. They teach the slavery of thought, the conditioning of thought, not freedom of thought. We are not all the same and shouldn’t be run through the school mill as if we are. I didn’t say “the education systems sucks” and then act as if I didn’t get some tidbits from it. To make it clear, I say the education system sucks (see its factual results and output) and you barely get any useful education from it… but a truck load of useless information, complete lies, and constant bombardment from that system to conform you. Again, for me, I needed no educational system to be curious and explore what life was and is. I was born with the desire to search for truth. This is by far a greater blessing imho than any teacher or educational system could ever even begin to compare itself too. How a teacher can think they are a requirement for life or above life itself is beyond me, but there you have our difference. You think without teachers like you, life would suffer a worse fate; I don’t, not in the least.
“He who loses his individuality loses all.” -Gandhi
“Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth
as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth.”
- Gandhi
We can debate anything! I have no issues with anything nor am I interested, as I said before, in winning anyone over to what I’ve seen and known in my life etc.
I believe they realized that education was making the labor class discontent as stated. With education they realized how badly they were getting screwed. Hard not be discontent when you realize the labor you produce is being stolen from you by a huge degree and kept by the wealthy, which is why their wealthy and your family and brothers/sister of labor struggles. Like the old and false economic theory of the “trickle-down effect” which they teach in schools and colleges. It is a lie and proven false many times over, but it is still the norm in schools and colleges. But hegemony is a critical requirement in the conditioning of the poor and middle class students in school and beyond so that they vote and live in a way that actually does a disservice to their own lively hood and wellbeing while benefiting instead the wealthy elite ruling class.
As Chomsky said in the short video link I posted. Those rare teachers are of great benefit, but … “A teacher who tries to get students to think may find repression, firing, and so on…”
I think you’ve got way too much of yourself invested in this idea that only teachers can make children into intelligent human beings. I’ll have to quote Gandhi again…
“Real education consists in drawing the best out of yourself.” - Gandhi
Why should everyone have to learn calculus?
I didn’t say I thought the system was the same as the 60’s or 80’s either? But the positive change you mention isn’t happening on a large scale by any measurable means in the US. It is still just getting worse and worse here.
I agree, tests are a horrible way to actually identify individual intelligence. Not to mention many of the standardized test are changed and scores adjusted to suit and fit into requirements. This has been shown in many cases across the country where teachers and schools (administration) are caught manipulating test scores to stay out of trouble, job loss, or lose federal funding. Not to mention many teachers just give out the answers to the test the day before now to avoid losing their jobs or the demotions that occur for the ‘bad’ teachers. It is a complete joke of a system of measurement ripe with cronyism, falsehood, and manipulation.
It may be the standard there, but not here. Most teachers want to teach here because it’s one of the easiest course programs in college with the lowest level classes all the way through. That and summers off. Several of my friends are teachers and freely admit to their own reasoning and decision making. In fact many teachers here do not even have a degree in their teaching realm. Coaches teach all subjects but only have a physical education degree or less. A history major teaches math or english or accounting here.
What if that fire is already lit? Again, I just feel teachers are well overstepping the idea that without them lighting the fire there would be no fire. It’s a false idea and denies all of the individual self without some outside influence. Life just doesn’t work that way in my experience and reality. Again, no offense meant nor am I trying to change your mind. Think what you will, it’s all gravy with me, but I’m not going to deny what my life has taught me either.
Basically, I agree with other philosophers, if your inner light is lit by another, then it is petty and can be blown out. Only the light that is a light unto itself cannot be extinguished.
Onto post #2 to fit character limits! Never even knew they existed until now!
Continued post…
Teachers should teach though. They should have the ability to explain clearly complicated subjects as their job. They shouldn’t consider themselves the savior of children, leave that to the truth. So what many kids will never be anything close to an intellectual? That gives no one the right to belittle or subjugate them into servitude. Many of their lives were horrible and their motivation was supposed to be destroyed. In fact, most children’s light, the light in their eyes will be gone by the time they’re adults. Sad but true. This is why the world is a wreck, the environment has been totaled, and the lack of love is unprecedented. “There is no salvation in adapting oneself to a world that is crazy.” - Henry Miller
A great truth teller. And so was G.B.S… “My way of joking is to tell the truth. It’s the funniest joke in the world.” So I hope you can understand, this whole post is me joking and truth telling.
Like Nike says, just do it. It is just a rehash that schools produce stupider and stupider kids, not smarter ones. But, the visa issue seems much less well known in the US but is as true as the rehashing.
But you have to be optimistic possibly since you are part of it. But I think teachers like that are trying to take credit you don’t deserve in my world view is all. It’s not up to teachers to save the world with their bits of education they dole out which you seem to think can do something it can’t, again only in my simple nobody special point of view and reality, so I hope you understand, I’m not trying to be offensive or provoke you.
You could listen to the First Nations people if they are like our Native Americans to understand where I’m coming from maybe? “We do not want riche’s, they would do us no good. We want peace and love.” - Red Cloud
You see, in my view, not to get all hippy tree hugger either (I say this due to conditioning!), all that is needed is love. Love will always create right action and isn’t complicated. Love is subtle, simple, and even uneducated in its own sense, as the more educated have the most reasons not to love. Maybe you could sit with the Zen koan: “How would you teach one who is deaf, dumb, and blind” to understand where I’m speaking from?
So you see, to me, it is You that needs the fire and that fire is the Love in your heart to be a teacher. Only then do you have a chance to inspire children. Notice I didn’t say teach children, but inspire them. So again, you don’t need any fancy schooling yourself, you only need this love in your heart and then and only then can you move mountains. But it will have nothing to do with your education and everything to do with your heart and the truth.
Again, I see the whole. And on the whole, the system is a complete failure right now regardless of what is coming in a future that doesn’t exist, much less yet. Those are the facts even if you want me to project my vision into some future time and happily reside there. Students have been dumbed down my whole life and the only way things get changed is to focus attention to the bad and ugly that most want to ignore because it hurts. Deal with the pain, it is truth. But you bring up the very reason things haven’t changed and are just pushed off onto the next generation. That’s because the system doesn’t want change, it doesn’t want complications, it doesn’t want to admit failure or expose its true intentions which are to keep most of the population below the elite. Parents should be the main educators of their children but that is another failure altogether.
Open your eyes and remove your blinders and you will see the institution gave you nothing impressive compared to what life gave you, for free, and without effort. So I’m not saying discount what a flawed system gave you as impressive a list as you may think it is. I’m saying quit giving a system credit it doesn’t deserve from the very beginning. Like you said earlier, some kids you can’t force education into or onto. The same was with you. You chose to educate yourself with their help. You are what’s important, the individual, not the books and system.
Maybe you should fight a war or two or three in the military and see what it’s like to slaughter and watch people slaughtered for other men’s ideas and knowledge of what is right and wrong. Then you can begin to understand that human life is more important than ideas and what is taught and conditioned into little children in schools. Maybe I’ve just hit my head too many times and will never make any sense! Please don’t take anything I’ve said to seriously. I would rather you be happy and unconcerned with anything I’ve said in the end, but still don’t mind sharing my point of view and life experience. ;D
Death and taxes!!!
Soo… Are you asking anyone in particular to homecoming?
Let’s be truthful here, the US educational system really does suck, and for many reasons.
Unqualified teachers
Short school year
“No Child Left Behind”
Lack of division by skill level in the classroom
The average American reads at a 7th-8th grade reading level.
See a problem?
The more intelligent student’s need to be grouped together, and learn at the same rate, possible many times faster than the slowest student in the class (The current standard for classroom speed).
While I’m talking about that, I feel I should add that I believe many people don’t belong in college. What they really need is training in the field they are going into, not a very expensive educational system that they struggle through without learning anything.
Also, while I’m on a rant about screwed up schools, most cases of ADD and ADHD are simply the teachers requesting children be medicated because they get bored in class. Believe me, I know this for a fact. I (Nearly), and many of my friend’s were victim’s of it. I have many perfectly normal friends that were forced into the medications by their teachers in grade school, because teachers can bully parents into not teaching the kids. I was fortunate. I was always bored in class (Still am. I’m that guy who sits in the back and spins pens, talks, and draws on papers and still gets A’s on everything), and I would always be busy doing something to stimulate my brain so I don’t go completely brain-dead. I’ve heard the over-diagnosis is possibly MORE than 2/3 of ADD/ADHD cases.
So far I have strongly disliked middle school. Only having one teacher out of 2 years that I have truly enjoyed (band). The problem I have is the fact that it’s not challenging. I’m in all advanced classes, Gifted program, and all that jazz. Sadly we learn something and even after I learn it we continue talking about it, it honestly gets to the point in which I stop caring enough to turn in work. Thats what destroys my grade. We’re just beating to the ground even though I have already learned it. I went to a math class over the summer (yeah huge nerd) and that was the best class ever. Because I wasn’t the only gifted (i hate that bane for some reason) one so we learned something did a little practice and ran on to the next thing. This was brilliant and I seriously wish school was more like this. Watch cgpgrey’s “digital Aristotle” video.
I’ve never said that “only” teachers can inspire learning. Gah! I’m not “invested” in the educational system… I’m a software developer now. I know that the majority of teachers see education as the lighting of a fire, but that doesn’t mean they feel it’s their sole duty. Education is in the hands of the community, the parents, and ultimately the self.
You would be surprised at how often a teacher is a primary source of this “love” that you refer to.
I dunno. It’s pointless to continue this discussion because we’re making too many assumptions about what is being said. That’s not our faults… discourse should be dynamic and two-way. In a real conversation, I might say something about the value of a teacher, you would say “ah, but teachers aren’t the sole source of that!” and I would say “of course, not, but consider this…” etc etc.
These volumes of text aren’t helping create the kind of discourse I value. On the contrary, they’re a source of endless frustration because every time I see an opportunity to say “that’s not exactly what I meant,” I become exhausted at the thought of trying to better explain my perspective. I can see that you’re not getting what I’m saying, and it’s clear that I’m missing some of your points, too. I’m willing to leave it at that.
Wow Abby, just look what you started now.
I know and I’m mostly out of it all I got from it was …something something… Einstein… something something… I don’t like American public schools… Some thing something… Big giant debate I don’t know about.
I know right. Sorta stinky such a light-hearted thread turned into a ‘civilized’ flame war (-｡-;
what I got: Something, Einstein, something, “the systems wack yo!”
No flame war. Besides, you’re the one that’s… stinky… or something… or your MOM is! YEAH, I SAID IT.
lolzeez, I shower…
Plus it is a flame war… A flame war of ice cubes