Now that the World YoYo Contest has wrapped up, here’s a question for you:
With Mir securing his 3rd World 1A Title, does that put him in the GOAT conversation? 
And while we’re at it, who’s on your Mount Rushmore of 1A yo-yo players?
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Mr. Yodel belongs on the Harney Peak Granite site (PaHaSaPa Land) of Mt. Rushmore as he is the most accomplished and most decorated of all time as a traveling yoyoguy! Other than McPhee, No Contest!
Mir Who?
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it’s hard to argue he isnt the best 1a competitor we’ve had. his skills are unreal!!
any real criticism would basically just be on the current meta, but that isnt Mir’s fault that its so slacky and whippy atm, and its a matter of taste.
He is very young so I hope as he grows up a bit he can become a great role model and advocate for the sport like other winners such as Gentry Stein, Betty Gallegos, or Rei Iwakura!
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For 1a? My top 3 are probably Suzuki, Gentry, and probably Shinya Kido
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David….. The questions were pretty clear… With his 3rd consecutive World Yo-yo Contest win, do you think Mir Kim could be considered Greatest of all time 1A player? And, post your short list of who you think could be the Worlds Greatest 1A players?
Nothing wrong with your complimentary words about John Higby. But your praise of John has nothing to do with Top rated 1A players.
By the way don’t feel bad about not knowing Mir Kim.
He doesn’t know you either.
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I think it certainly puts him in the conversation if he wasn’t already. Hiroyuki obviously has such a long, sustained period of dominance at both Worlds and also other contests like JP nats and AP (historically and probably still now the most competitive contests outside of Worlds) that it’s hard to say definitively that Mir has passed him for 1a GOAT.
That said, if you were of the view that the current era of 1a is the most competitive it’s ever been and that plus Mir’s still quite extended period of dominance made him the 1a GOAT over Hiroyuki in your eyes, I think that’s a reasonable opinion to have.
My competitive 1a Mount Rushmore (where the criteria is based on success in 1a contests) would probably be Hiroyuki Suzuki, Mir Kim, Yuuki Spencer and then Gentry. Honourable mentions to Takeshi Matsuura, Zach Gormley and Jensen Kimmitt.
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For “is Mir the GOAT” I would put a tentative “not yet.” For me when I think of someone who has GOAT status, I think of someone who has both accomplishments and influence, and I think it’s the 2nd part where I’m not sure Mir has quite reached that status yet. If you look at Hiroyuki for example (who I would say is still the all-time GOAT of 1a, at least when it comes to competition), his style of tricks and speedplay was very influential to other players. For probably a decade (even up through Shion Araya) the “speed player” was sort of the default archetype for the high-level competitive player, especially in Asia, although there were plenty of other styles that were also successful. Additionally, his overall stylish presentation of tricks with things like the shades and gloves raised the level of showmanship for the era.
It’s hard to say if Mir has had the same level of influence overall. Perhaps this is due to the competition environment that exists now, where most top players have been gravitating to a more amalgamated “meta” style, not trying to really forge their own style or copy top competitors directly, rather trying to interpret the judging system and fit their tricks within it. If I had to choose a single player who influenced this approach to competition, it would be Gentry, who has done a lot to spread this interpretation of competition through things like his videos online and competition workshops. Mir on the other hand just kind of shows up once a year, dominates, and then goes home. It’s clear that his level of raw skill and consistency is a step ahead of the current competition, but I don’t really see him as a player that other people are trying to imitate, rather he’s simply the best at playing the current metagame. Now, Mir is still a young player, with plenty of room to grow. I’m curious to see if he will gradually integrate more artistic elements into his play as Hajime has and Takeshi did also, or if he will stay focused in his “competition” shredder lane. But I think “GOAT” is a more holistic accomplishment than just “wins world’s every year.”
For Mount Rushmore of players I think of “founding fathers,” people who were especially influential and foundational in building the overall scene in some way. For the sake of this discussion I will focus on people primarily known for competition. So, I would pick these four:
- Hiroyuki Suzuki: Speed play, establishing a competitive style
- Yuuki Spencer: Tech play
- John Ando: Body tricks, 2a, part of SHAQLER
- Jensen Kimmit: Definitely the least objective and most arguable here, but I would say that Jensen’s style of trick presentation and “swagger” was sort of a first wave of competitors that focused on more diverse and “artistic” presentation of tricks.
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I generally agree with this take in terms of what it really means to be the GOAT - but I’d ask if there’s a tipping point where the influence half doesn’t really matter. Let’s exaggerate it and say he just shows up and wins every year - how long until he’s the GOAT regardless? What if he wins 5 years straight? 7? 10?
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That’s a good point. The “influence” factor is a bit biased towards players who are earlier to the game, as they have more leeway to sort of “decide” what the best way to play is. That’s why now, 20+ years in to modern competitive yoyoing, we don’t see the same leaps in style/performance every year like we used to. Still, I think it should be considered, and even if we’re considering purely competitive accomplishments there are other players who are close to or still beating him. One thing that’s interesting about Mir is that since starting his World’s run, it’s the ONLY competition he’s attended, at least that I can find online. This means we have much less “data” on his overall consistency. Whereas again comparing to Hiroyuki (the closest comparison) he not only competed at World’s but also Japanese regionals and AP, placing at top 3 at nearly every one of these up through 2012, and was still present at World’s finals up through 2016. That’s much more time and many more competitions, especially considering how competitive AP was. Gentry too, while now being surpassed in number of world titles, has much more data when you include U.S. nationals and overall WYYC finals placements. It’s true that at the current moment Mir is incredibly dominant, but I still don’t think we have enough data yet to declare him the GOAT.
I, personally, didn’t like his performance much, his style doesn’t engage me. But the points are the points and he has won again. Congratulations!
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It’s also harder to see what someone’s influence is while it’s happening whereas it’s easier to identify that someone had a clear influence retrospectively. That said, I do think Mir is influencing competitive 1a in a few ways and I’m sure more competitive minded players could identify other areas of influence (now, I’m not saying he originated any of the following, but that his dominance has made them grow further in popularity and they are being more widely adopted):
- Themed music use with a clear identifying/iconic slogan. This year it was superman (following a growing theme of movie/game soundtracks being used), in previous years it was MJ songs. Christopher Chia deserves credit for really making this standout with his “Take That” routines but there was a long period where electronic music was very prevalent along with custom mixes of multiple songs. But now I think you’re seeing an increase in routines with a strong identifying, culturally prevalent song, and I think in part that’s influenced by the Kims’ focus on this.
- His dominance in 2023 in particular relative to the competition I think was a shock to the system for top players, especially due to the forced gap from COVID, and has driven a rapid increase in the difficulty and optimisation of competition play.
The above can’t be singularly attributed to Mir but I think he is having a greater influence than he’s being credited for and it’ll be more obvious a few years down the road. I do also think he has his own distinct style even if it is obviously quite meta.
I think his routines already are very highly choreographed with a great deal of thought put into presentation. No one (aside from maybe Jonathan this year) really comes close to Hajime in this regard but I think Mir’s level of choreo is very comparable to Takeshi for example, it’s just in a different way.
I do think the value of winning competitions like nationals and the like goes underappreciated in these convos and it’s partly why I personally would still put Hiroyuki ahead and would rank Takeshi highly even though he never won worlds in 1a (as he still was very successful at JP nats and other contests). That said, that’s more from a point of view of appreciating their value rather than concerns about a potential lack of consistency and I don’t think it’s required. Hajime has a similar approach to Mir and there’s no doubting his GOAT status after all.
I mean, even though Mir hasn’t attend other contests, it’s really impressive to be so dominant for the last 3 years (4 counting online) even though he has less contest experience.
Mt*. Rushmore has 4 heads, so my top 4 are:
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Mickey
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John Ando
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Gentry
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Yuuki
TLDR Mir is not the goat quite yet but will be eventually if he keeps seriously competing for >5 more years
I don’t think Mir is the 1a goat quite yet, but imo with this 3rd win, he is definitively 2nd only behind Mickey (Hiroyuki Suzuki) and has the chance to surpass him if he keeps competing and possibly very soon if he maintains his dominance and nobody rises up to contest him in the next few years.
For those that believe that he has surpassed Mickey and is the 1a GOAT, consider these stats if you are not aware:
- 3 time consecutive world champion, 4 times total
- From 2002-2012, an 11 year span, he podiumed or won 10 times, the only time he didn’t was in 2011, when he just missed it, getting 4th.
- From 2004-2010, a 7 year span, he won or got 2nd, every single year. There is a world where he could’ve won 6 titles in a row (07-09 were closely contested but in 2010 jensen won in dominant fashion so I refrain from saying 7).
- He has made world finals in 15 years, the most of any player ever in ANY division. To achieve this feat, and the others as well, in the most competitive yoyo division, is astounding.
I do think COVID hurt Mirs case quite a bit because if it wasn’t for the pandemic, there was a real chance that he would’ve won 5 1a titles consecutively, which would’ve been completely unprecedented, especially in the modern era. I do consider the 2 OWYYC titles towards his case but they are not quite the same as a true world title imo. I think if he had achieved this, it’d be pretty even now between him and Mickey even though he doesn’t have the longevity yet. It just simply would’ve been a 5 year peak that we’ve never seen before, and in the most competitive era ever.
I will say I do value recency as we are in the most competitive era ever, and it only becomes more competitive every year so Mir definitely doesn’t have to match or surpass Mickeys accolades to overtake Mickey. I also weight consecutive wins more so if he were to win again the next year or 2 and make it 4/5 consecutive wins, the case would definitely start to favor Mir. Imo, if he wins next year, he’ll be basically right there at Mickey’s level, and if he wins the next 2 years, I would have him as my 1a goat.
I think it might not be that easy though as his ‘24 win wasn’t nearly as dominant as his ‘23 win and Hunter has been improving and closing the gap each year for 3+ years now, and proved this year that he can keep up with Mir. I think Hunter’s very hungry for a world title and there’s a real chance he breaks the run next year. But this might motivate Mir even more as well so we will have to see. Regardless, I do think if Mir keeps competing seriously for >5 more years (I believe he has military service coming up though?) though it’s not really a matter of if but when will he become the 1a goat.
My 1a Mount Rushmore is Tomonari Ishiguro, Johnnie Delvalle, Mickey, and Yuuki Spencer, or Mickey, Yuuki Spencer, Gentry Stein, and Mir depending on how you view it (OGs vs GOATs)
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Evan Nago I think is my Goat. His style is the best
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Takeshis def the greatest 1a player to never win a world title imo
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I keep seeing people say they don’t really count OWYYC wins, what’s the thought behind that? I get that it’s not exactly the same…..but it’s still an official contest where honestly, even MORE people could enter (in theory) and send in even better/cleaner freestyles. So the winning ones would still have to be crazy good right?
So what’s the thought in the idea that they don’t count?
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Quality of players is better than quantity and multiple notable top players didn’t compete in OWYYC. The player quality at the top level was just a bit lower for online vs actual worlds. Evan, Shion, Connor, Hunter, Ryuichi, Nathan, and more. All of these players were perennial worlds finalist and podium/champion threats that didn’t compete in one or both years that would’ve if it was in person worlds.
This is true but there’s also value in the pressure of competing live in front of hundreds of viewers with 1 opportunity, no retakes. It’s possible, maybe even likely, that Mir would’ve still won, but it would’ve definitely been more difficult with tougher competition, more pressure, and no 2nd chances.
If you were to ask top players, I think most would agree that online worlds doesn’t carry quite as much weight or value as a true world title so I view it the same way. I do count OWYYC results, and I think they are worth more than a nationals, but I don’t think it’s worth quite as much as worlds.