Fix The Learn!

[Totalartist]

@GregP

TA, it seems you missed the part where I said they have good marketing already… and that this shouldn’t be their “top” priority (just top-3 marketing priority). The vast majority of your previous post was you agreeing with me, but wording it in such a way that it made it sound like you were countering a claim of mine…!

The only thing we don’t agree on is whether or not updated videos would be good marketing. I could go off on a tangent and not only re-state but delve deeper into why I think updated videos (not necessarily by Andre himself) would be the cornerstone of a forward-thinking marketing strategy focused on growth… I couldn’t back it with YYE’s metrics, so it might not mean a heck of a lot, but it would be an educated and professional opinion. But I think it might fall on deaf ears because you’ve made up your mind. The brief explanations I already gave would have been enough already if there was an opportunity to convince you the idea is a good one!

I re-read the thread, and took the same thing away from it. We seemed to disagree just on whether or not he should do more trick videos. I didn’t agree (even for marketing purposes), and while I want to see more Andre on video too, I just would not expect to see him go “back to teaching” on video.

We haven’t seen him play at length on video too often, so it may be a hint that he’d like to move away from that. I don’t want to call trick videos “moving backward” for Andre, but it is something he spent a lot of time doing in the “past,” and he seems to be moving forward now in his yo-yo career.

I feel like this analogy. When he made those videos, he was a teacher. Then, he was promoted to a high school principal. Then, he became the Superintendent of Schools. But, as the Superintendent, some remember how good a teacher he was, so they want him to go back. :-\ I would rather remember him as he was, but allow him to move on in his career.

But, I always like to see Andre, so on that GregP we certainly agree.

[GregP]

Except that I said it doesn’t have to be Andre.

And I said that we disagree only on the videos but not everything else (that their marketing is generally good, and that it doesn’t have to be their top priority).

I get the sense that you are a very busy woman. LOL!

[Totalartist]

@GregP

Except that I said it doesn’t have to be Andre.

And I said that we disagree only on the videos but not everything else (that their marketing is generally good, and that it doesn’t have to be their top priority).

I get the sense that you are a very busy woman. LOL!

You could not possibly disagree about the marketing anyway. Well, if you know Andre any, even if someone else was doing the videos, he’d watch them all, and make sure they are up to par before they end up on here. That consumes time too, because if not…back to the drawing board. I was thinking along the lines of the video getting…no priority at all. But, I guess I can compromise. We’ll agree that it should be #53 on the YYE to do list

Yes, I am busy, but I try not to let it interfere with forum time. ;D

[yooldman]

If you don’t think the videos need updating, Then why do we always get this question, " What is the bind that Andre uses at x:xx time in y-video." Then we have to tell them, " These videos are old, pay no attention to how he ends every trick. Search (insert your favorite site for proper binds.")

[Totalartist]

@yooldman

If you don’t think the videos need updating, Then why do we always get this question, " What is the bind that Andre uses at x:xx time in y-video." Then we have to tell them, " These videos are old, pay no attention to how he ends every trick. Search (insert your favorite site for proper binds.")

I guess I don’t see that question come up as often as you do. Not that it doesn’t, but if it does…so be it. Easy solution, just answer the question if you know the answer. Also, what does the age of a video have to do with a question about the name of a bind? The question seems to mean exactly that…they want to know what the name of the bind is that he uses. If he was to bind the same way in a new video, they can still ask…“What is the bind that Andre uses at x:xx time in y-video.” So, if Andre made new videos, he would have to bind differently, so that no one will ever ask about his binds again, because you are sick of seeing the question? You might still see the question regarding new videos :-\ Please clarify. So, to answer your question to me, that question about binds comes up, likely because people want to know about the name of a bind. But, I don’t see what it has to do with the age of the videos. Yes, I still don’t think the videos need updating. My opinion on that remains the same.

[yooldman]

He is binding off of the trapeze, which causes even him a snag a lot in the vids. The reason it has to do with the age of the video is nobody uses this bind anymore. The reason, it is very snaggy.

*Edit: spell check says snaggy isn’t a word, but it has never tried that bind. ;D

[Totalartist]

@yooldman

He is binding off of the trapeze, which even causes him a snag a lot in the vids. The reason it has to do with the age of the video is, nobody uses this bind anymore. the reason, it is very snaggy.

“Nobody?” I use it. If he wants people to learn that way, so be it in my eyes. It is his site, he can do what he wants in the learn section. Some people start learning responsive, and some do not. As I stated much earlier in this thread, his teaching method is his teaching method. If you recommend otherwise, cool, but the site and the trick videos are at discretion of the owner of the site. He seems cool enough with it. If a poster asked me the name of a bind, I would simply tell them the name of the bind, and not tell them, “nevermind that, the video is old.” I’d answer what they asked, because maybe they like a snaggy bind. I would just say, “that’s a such and such bind.” Who am I to judge? How many times do people ask me why I double wrap my string around a yo-yo? I hardly have a reason…just like to do it and do it. Some like it, some don’t, different strokes… Same with that bind.

[GregP]

The rolling bind he uses is not taught on the site AFAIK, which is the first point of confusion. Next, it works best on a semi-responsive yoyo which most people don’t use anymore (people are either full responsive or unresponsive). It’s surprisingly difficult on a wide-gapped unresponsive yoyo. It’s not a true bind. When it works, it’s a very snaggy bind and needs to be cleared (you can see Andre clearing it multiple times in every video). If you don’t clear it, you’re asking for a yoyo to the head.

So it’s not that people want the name for it, it’s that it’s not a good bind for them to learn until later (if ever…). But they don’t know that, so when they keep failing at it, they ask for the name of it so that they can (ironically) go find other tutorials for it.

At that point, most of us say “Ehhh… it’s not a very good bind. Here are some other ones to learn instead…”.

[edit: ninja’d by Yooldman, but the points stand]

[yooldman]

You obviously love it more than I want to complain about it, but isn’t this discussion section about suggesting site improvements. Do we have to defend all of our suggestions? I know that you love the status quo, but having this long discussion has suddenly made me more reluctant to start a new topic here. I guess we better just like it how it is.

[Totalartist]

@GregP

The rolling bind he uses is not taught on the site AFAIK, which is the first point of confusion. Next, it works best on a semi-responsive yoyo which most people don’t use anymore (people are either full responsive or unresponsive). It’s surprisingly difficult on a wide-gapped unresponsive yoyo. It’s not a true bind. When it works, it’s a very snaggy bind and needs to be cleared (you can see Andre clearing it multiple times in every video). If you don’t clear it, you’re asking for a yoyo to the head.

So it’s not that people want the name for it, it’s that it’s not a good bind for them to learn until later (if ever…). But they don’t know that, so when they keep failing at it, they ask for the name of it so that they can (ironically) go find other tutorials for it.

At that point, most of us say “Ehhh… it’s not a very good bind. Here are some other ones to learn instead…”.

[edit: ninja’d by Yooldman, but the points stand]

@yooldman I see “site improvements” section as a forum section, and like all forum sections, they are topics available for discussion (unless locked or BST). This one in particular, has not been a bad discussion in my eyes, and I think either side can stop discussing it at any time. You first? So, it is not about “defense,” merely addressing the various points being made. I don’t think anyone is really on the defense here. They are all really just opinions at the end of the day. You say yes, I say no, and then we raise more issues about why you say yes and I say no, and so the discussion goes. But, I have to admit that I’m surprised you would be reluctant to post here. The same is done to me when I post here, and I usually reply or abandon it if the discussion about it hits a dead end. Despite what either of us say, the end result of applying the idea is out of our control.

GregP clarified your point about the bind. I see your point. Some people want to emulate Andre as close as possible, and while he teaches other binds, not that one. But, that leads to further discussion. Would new videos be better because he would potentially bind differently after each trick? If so, I would still not recommend doing all the tricks over, because it is not the trick, it’s simply the bind at the end…which is not the focus of the trick video anyway. Plus, he teaches other binds, so it does not hold anyone back from learning tricks. If one new video would teach the rolling bind, no point in making that either, because it can be found elsewhere on Youtube, and as someone stated “nobody” uses it and no one likes it anyway. So, the fact that “nobody” uses the bind, means to me that the bind is irrelevant to the learn videos altogether, new ones included. In short, the bind issue in the videos, in my opinion, is not worthy of the time it takes to do new video.

The bind does look sick by the way…can’t blame them for asking.

[yooldman]

;D I guess your 18 paragraphs against my 4 just intimidate me. I’m more impressed that I feel so strongly on this I’m still posting.

[Totalartist]

@yooldman

;D I guess your 18 paragraphs against my 4 just intimidate me. I’m more impressed that I feel so strongly on this I’m still posting.

I sound serious, but in real life…a lot less so. You guys just make good points, and it makes me further curious of your thoughts. I honestly wish YoyoExpert had more time to do a lot of stuff. He’s a busy guy. He must feel so loved by everyone. ;D

[GregP]

Unlike product development, marketing should try to anticipate the market. It’s good to have metrics to base a strategy on, but you also can’t predict the future. So I would be curious to know what role the videos in general play for the site… how often are they watched here vs. how often are they watched on YouTube. If there are links from YouTube to the site, how often are they clicked? (more likely, not… which is a HUGE weakness in my opinion; every video on YouTube should have a link directly to the site either in one of those “call outs” you can add, or at least in the description.)

But with those metrics, I still wouldn’t be able to say “You will get more traffic.” All I can say is, “research proves that video content is the strongest way to grow organic traffic,” which it does and which it is. Video outdoes all other kinds of content by a large margin.

So, it stands to reason that to grow the company (if he’s interested in growing the company… not everyone really IS! And that’s not a criticism; some people just reach a point they’re fine with) this is pretty low hanging fruit. It’s not as labour-intensive as you think it is to make a video… a bit moreso if someone is to do those Definitive Yoyoing style animations… but that would be outsourced anyhow. So yes, a fairly easy way to boost recognition, credibility as the heartbeat of modern yoyoing, and seize control of all the inbound traffic (from YouTube or even better from organic searches that lead right to the site).

It’s just obvious to me as someone who breathed marketing for a medium-sized company for two years; it’s hard to even imagine that somebody would think it’s a waste of time and that there are 52 better marketing activities to engage in!

Is his time better spent doing other things in general? Maybe! Working out new deals with companies like Yoyofficer is something I could see being pretty important. Nurturing the supply chain and relationships with vendors. Being active in contests (which he already is… not saying to set that aside!!). Then there’s his personal life, which SHOULD always take priority over pretty much anything… friends and family are everything. But in terms of marketing (which is still an important business activity as it FEEDS the sales!), I’m having a hard time imagining what the 52 (or even 5) “more important activities” should be. If you’ve got ideas, I’d love to hear them…

Back to the videos themselves… the more you’re willing to outsource, the less time it’s going to take. And we know for sure that there are heaps of talented video makers in the yoyo community, many of whom would do it for a very fair price (not like total 3rd-party strangers that will try to milk you!). Some players might be willing to show tricks for the exposure… who knows? Outsourcing in the yoyo community isn’t going to break the bank…

And it doesn’t even have to be all at once. Could be a section at a time. Trim some fat, add some new content…

Get the optics, get those inbound clicks, and get that paper!

If status quo was good enough, we wouldn’t have the tricks we have. We wouldn’t have the yoyos we have. Sure, we can rest on our laurels… or we can do it better. We can break ground and be industry leaders…

Oh wait, just remembered… I’m not actually ON the marketing team. I’m not part of that “we”. Got carried away there.

Another thing that’s worth stating although I suspect it has already gone without saying: it’s not like anyone’s hurting Andre’s feelings with this. Nobody is saying his videos suck. It’s business; nothing to take personally. And we don’t need to say “it’s great the way it is” just because of all the hard work and awesomeness that is the existing selection! They’re great! But they can be better. No piece of marketing should typically survive for that long. They’re already a testament to good work. But nobody should be expected to imagine that a successful campaign or asset will last forever. It’s anticipatory to recognize that these are due for an update…

Blah blah blah… Greg sure likes to talk… blah blah…

[Totalartist]

That was so long, I knew I’d better not hit the quote button. But, I swear, I can outdo you
But, seriously…

As far as the trick videos, I think they are classics, and market worthy in their own right, as they are, and viewed for what they are. I watch a ton of old video for things, and not only am I entertained, but I become more of a fan of the subject as a result. Old video in this case is holding nothing back, as I see it. There has been new video, as stated, with the Ben Conde stuff, which was fantastic. It is an example of video not totally outsourced, because it is YYE produced as far as I am aware. Not only that, but in terms of video and the benefits for marketing, I wonder if anyone has seen the Yoyoexpert channel on Youtube and the thousands of subscribers. Has anyone seen the contest videos, and what seems like hundreds of them, under the YoyoExpert name? How about the tons not under the YYE name, where the logo appears. How about the few I’ve made with the logo. So, in short, there is always new video created by the site YoyoExpert, and beyond that promotes YYE, and the discussion here was about whether the “trick video” clicks would be worthy of the effort by Andre or anyone else…even the effort to outsource it. While I would not say they have “no” value, I think in the totality of the marketing scheme, and new video already being created (Mass States next month no doubt added), this is nowhere near a priority, and if it never happens…I’m okay with that.

As far as video being labor intensive, sure it is, and that cannot be disputed. Any quality videos made are labor intensive. Still photos are also labor intensive when you strive for quality. Much of the discussion here about a need for new video, is based on complaints about video quality, and lack of slow motion versions of tricks and so on. I have generated quite a bit of video over the years, and there is a lot of time consumption in setting up an adequate workspace, making sure light, camera setup, scene and sound are sufficient, then making a good take to begin with, doing any retakes as needed, viewing the raw footage, organizing what should be used, editing appropriately, adding in text, transitions, intros, outros, effect, adjusting sound volume and so on, and creating all this slow motion version people are requesting, then uploading the content. Then, if you don’t like it all, you start from square one. That is the short version. Now, that is hours of time on a short video, and while Andre would not likely do it all, it is staff time that might be better needed elsewhere. So, if the purpose of making new video is to better the quality, the time to generate these videos, even short ones, increases.

In terms of coming up with 52 better marketing strategies…I never said 52 marketing strategies, I said a list of 52 things to do. So the point was that this is not important. But, marketing-wise, it would be lower than that. I deem it totally unnecessry. A business is about efforts with far more than making video, which the site already has plenty of, on the site and on Youtube. In terms of checking inventory, working graphics for the site, listing new items in the store, updating the blog, dealing with forum issues, responding to customer service inquiries, corresponding with manufacturers, planning for Mass States or Triple Crown, traveling from city to city and deciding what product to take with you, dealing with staff concerns and employee issues, keeping up with the latest trends, updating Facebook, Twitter, Instagram or whatever, taking the contest van to the car wash or mechanic, dealing with site and server issues, talking to your accountant, talking to your attorney, mailing product to customers, I could go on and on. But, in terms of marketing, the point is, that this video idea is so far at the bottom of things to do, based on tons of YYE video already being available anyway, that it is not even worth entertaining in my eyes. Further, in a grand scheme of running a business and the list of things to do in general are concerned, hardly any chance of seeing it, unless it becomes terribly convenient. For example, if Ben Conde comes to town and he’s here a few days anyway, might be time to take advantage of his spare time and record some video. Then, you can take your time later and edit as time permits. Then, I could see you getting new trick video. But, without convenience being there, I definitely don’t see anyone planning this as a project on the to do list. But, we all know the decision is not mine, I just don’t see the point myself. Who am I anyway?

In terms of breaking new ground and being on the cutting edge of everything or whatnot. The vision of the business is up to the owners of the business. We do not know what exactly that vision is, and what the plan is to get there. As stated before, YYE could cram marketing down our throats, but would it be the same YYE? Probably not. So, if new video creates this image, and creates that image, might be so, but it might not be what a business is trying to achieve. As a person running a business, instead of taking the easy road and mass creating new video online, we might want to think outside the box and network and promote other products or businesses that will inevitably grow our own business. I think in the age of Youtube, videos are great, but we already have video, as I stated, they have hundred and hundreds of YYE video. There is nothing new about doing new video, when they are already doing new video. So, perhaps they are on to different ideas, and this new trick video idea has to take a back seat…way back, or not make the agenda at all.

In an age when there are several sites dedicated to just “yo-yo tricks,” that are not yo-yo stores, why would YYE plan to make their own new videos to compete with sites that are not YYE competitors? This is a store, so if there was a store offering more than this site offers, things might change, but until then, I’d guess it will not get any sort of priority. YYE does not need to compete with the “other trick videos,” because no trick video source is outselling YYE, or even close to being in that realm. Therefore, this yo-yo site offers in general, what no other yo-yo site does, and that alone, sells itself. So, I agree video is good marketing for sure, but YYE already has video with links to YYE and the name YYE and the logo YYE, they have a ton of it already.

So, while the status quo is good in some areas and not in others, the same argument can be made about change made where it is not necessary. I have no problems with change, just think that in this area, it is not necessary. I think this petition is an example of that. Over a week later, not much for results…do you not agree?

[GregP]

You’re pretty stubborn.

[Totalartist]

@GregP

You’re pretty stubborn.

[yoyo_bt]

Is this a yoyo site or a creative writing forum? With all the time writing these lengthy debates one could have theoretically created their own trick then filmed a tutorial for it.

[Totalartist]

@yoyo bt

Is this a yoyo site or a creative writing forum? With all the time writing these lengthy debates one could have theoretically created their own trick then filmed a tutorial for it.

There was nothing “creative writing” about any of that.  We already addressed the filming of original tricks, and none of us do learn trick videos anyway.  If you’d like to do one, I’m glad to watch though.  But, thanks anyway.  Oh, and for more on what creative writing is…see Wikipedia:

Creative writing

[yooldman]

I’m at 10 days 10 hours writing about everything on here. I mean anything and everything. If I had spent that time practicing… ;D

[Totalartist]

@yooldman

I’m at 10 days 10 hours writing about everything on here. I mean anything and everything. If I had spent that time practicing… ;D

Hmmm. I think both things are great forms of expression (writing and practicing) so I value them equally in my life. Is the 10 days/10 hours just “writing” or total time you were logged in? I always thought it meant the total time logged in, reading, writing, checking PMs and all that. I’m curious. :-\