density and hardness are all measurable and quantifiable - and repeatable with a material that can be manufactured. limiting factors could be cost, availability of a certain resource, or your imagination…
Can you replicate wood with metal? Im going to tell you that you can’t. With plastic you probably can, but nobody has done it yet. Any ideas to propose? I still don’t like the feel of plastic over wood, but if playability is all that matters, id be willing to give it a shot.
I have some thoughts on what is best for modern responsive
- Big giant response pads. I mean BIG! Traditional 19mm slim pads ain’t it.
- Weekender / Respawn / Moonshine 2.0 style shape … all of these are amazeballs
- Not too heavy, on the lighter side relative to traditional unresponsives
- Real metal bearings, none of this wood axle xxxtra friction nonsense. I have a need… a need for speed
You know what? I got enough inconsistency & chaos in my life right now Ed. I don’t need more. You might, more power to ya, but I don’t, and the suggestion is… honestly? Unwelcome. Very unwelcome.
That said I’m not necessarily anti-wood, if you can slap a real metal bearing in it and satisfy the other requests, above. * I do like the hand feel of wood but I was not born in it, molded by it, like Ed. 
* but you can’t
3 Likes
here’s the thing, i don’t have to propose anything. nor will i… i don’t have a yoyo company. wood was replaced by metal how long ago as a viable yoyo material to push limits of what other people wanted out of it? if wood is to be just wood, does it even need to be the best wood it can be? again what is that??? besides, which wood species are you talking about, so i can pick a relative hardness and density to start looking up? do you have a sample to test? i’m not trying to be a jerk, this is reality.
i will say, i feel like @G2_Jake is one of the smartest people in the room right now, he’s the only manufacturer visibly paying attention to this conversation…
i’d also mention, we’re told every drop, as players, what we want… by the stars, by the manufacturers, by the cats on ig, by the boutique companies… you want big Vs and bimetals and trimetals and this and that… if that is the case, why are people chasing old school organics, you cannot pick up an a-rt for the life of you, etc?
2 Likes
The Delrin one addresses the weight and is quite good. I recommend it! Delrin is underrated as a midpoint between metal and plastic, as it is machined plastic! 
That’s too bad, I think the Confusion is super solid but the shape is kinda retro / throwback. I think the “best” shape for modern responsive is emerging as Weekender / Respawn / Moonshine 2.0.
Daytona SB is definitely superior to the original Daytona, in the same way that Moonshine 2.0 pretty much replaces the original Moonshine…
2 Likes
Honestly I was kind of thinking this was a casual topic, but if it is to truly be productive I probably could do some more intense evaluations. But as it is im being pushed at work (im doing covid-19 testing), id rather someone else do the innovation - I dont have a yoyo company either. Ultimately, the point of this thread was to ask people what their version of a responsive yoyo was ideal, not THE ideal. I was looking for opinions, not objective facts.
You can’t help it if sellers want to sell their idea of a good yoyo. Though this comment is off topic and applies more to the unresponsive market.
2 Likes
exactly. and, it’s not (yet) up to us… we don’t work for free… no one is giving us free yoyos. a wealth of knowledge, ideas, and inspiration has been dropped on this thread, i believe… so, if we’re going to build a better mousetrap, let’s build the best damn mousetrap we can… i’ve enjoyed this @eternalmetal amd posse
1 Like
I’m taking notes but I don’t have nearly the strength of catalog that Jake has. Guess I gotta start somewhere though.
I quite like some of the metal responsives I’ve had (Moonshine 2, Alleycat 605b) and disliked some others (Sherpa, Confusion). I can’t even do a kickflip yet though I enjoy both stall-based yoyoing and responsive 1a string tricks pretty equally.
The wooden yoyos I’ve played were all good to great, including a TMBR and several Spinworthy’s.
3 Likes
that doesn’t matter @MarkD, at least in my opinion. listening to your customers, and talking to them, not telling them and talking at them, is what sets a company apart man… good on ya
1 Like
like coding said, big (alleycat or bigger) pads, small bearing and the slim butterfly shape seem to have it about nailed down as far as modern metal goes, but i found the moonshine 2 to be a lot wider and denser than i wanted it to be, to the point where it fell off of messy stalls (weekender-currier ish width = 
).
if jake’s reading this, 52g on the respawn is what would get me to make the leap - diameter minus 3g-ish seems to be a sweet spot IMO.
my personal idea for the next step here is an a-sized wood bearing blank that i could slap into a weekender or something because i obsessively fiddle with my response, but i ultimately reach for all-wood more because consistency is more or less built in.
also, i’m hanging ed’s reply on my wall.
3 Likes
How about wooden response pads that you can glue into a metal yoyo 
4 Likes
big brain moment. the thin pads in the weekender aren’t enough.
1 Like
What’s the difference loool 
1 Like
I believe that wood actually is in a way superior. All the vibe, inconsistency, and friction from the wood axle; are transmitted down the string. Not only does that give the benefits of all the things you mention, but it gives you feedback about the state of the yoyo at the other end of the string.
As you get used to the yoyo, you get used to reading this feedback. I think it actually helps you improve your consistency with performing many tricks and elements. I think this is also why many of use tend to not switch around as often between wood fixed axle yoyos as we tend to do with metal unresponsives. We’re taking the time to program our senses to the nuances of the particular yoyo we’re playing.
As long as you still have a wood yoyo, with a wood axle, you’re still getting the benefits of the material.
4 Likes
your response didn’t answer anything. and if vibe is (or one of) the tactile benefit - which i’ll agree with, i bounce between responsive an unresponsive frequently, i still ask: why are there not more pieces from a wood run making it to sale? are we really rejecting pieces based on superfluous rocketship standards that mean nothing on our raft? how many rejects are being discarded for naught?
edit: in sum, there are no definable, objective attributes that make wood an independently better material as a yoyo. nor can this be proven.
1 Like
I have to wonder if manufacturers of wood yoyos are rejecting product due to vibe because they just don’t want to deal with someone who purchased their first wooden yoyo to get on the internet and start whining about vibe.
2 Likes
bing-effin-go @French!!!
i don’t object to wood really - i love it. i just object to the fact that it’s ‘perfect’ based on nothing verifiable.
Which part?
This part?
I have no idea how many yoyos are being discarded. I’ve seen pics from Jensen of boxes of discarded wood yoyo half. Wood is inconsistent.
You mean about why we have take apart yoyos that are made of wood? Because people like them, and people like to invent things, and people like to have options. I just totally disagree with your sentiment, that having a take apart yoyo, perhaps incorporating other materials, necessarily detracts from the desirable qualities of a wood yoyo with a wood axle. @edhaponik, one of the best fixed axle players, and a strong proponent for wood yoyo, list the No-Jive, a take apart design with a metal nut and bolt, as one of his all time favorites.
I think the case has been made. The proof is that people like to play with wood yoyos. They are still made and bought. People who play certain styles prefer them over other materials. In my book that proves there are attributes that make wood a better material for certain styles of yoyoing.
2 Likes
There is just so much in this thread, it’s going to take too long to respond to it all. But the basic idea I’m getting I’m here is that wood is worse because it’s not as consistent a material. I don’t understand why that makes it worse. Because of vibe? The yoyo will play fine despite this.
I’m also a little disappointed at Ed’s response, which seems to suggest that wood is a pretty bad performer (but he loves it).
Modern responsive tricks in no way at all require metal. Are stalls, flips and varials easier on a metal responsive? Not remotely. The only thing metal has on its side is spin time and less vibe, because that is apparently what the majority of people want.
Because wood is a lighter density material than metal, the weight is distributed evenly in the body. This gives it less of a hard hitting feel which is ideal for throw and return.
I would like to add that two of the best responsive players on the planet both have wooden signature throws; Ed Haponik and Kyle Nations. I wonder why this is?
4 Likes
I honestly don’t like playing with responsive metals.
When I play responsive I want it to be for fun only and like to give myself a challenge.
My favorites are currently:
A nicely broken in YYF Legend Wing
Blazing Team Morph Master in Pagoda shape(Most fun)
Duncan Butterfly
Honorable mentions
FHZ with one grippy silicon pad and a lubed bearing, The pads wear down too quick so this doesn’t make my favorites. I don’t like bothering with maintenance on fun yoyos.
4 Likes