The little debate I saw brewing in the DV888 thread about responsive yoyos got me wondering, what is your vision of the ideal responsive yoyo? Some questions i can ask: is wood the ideal material, or are we really seeking an endgame metal throw? Is semi-responsive really in the game among modern responsive styles, or are bearing yoyos somehow impure in this discussion?
I guess ill kickstart the topic with a few of my own initial opinions. Thus far, my experience leads me to believe that yes, wood is the best material for responsive yoyos. But this is because i am considering the modern 0A style play rather than semi-responsive bearing yoyos as responsiveâs true calling. If you want to do longer than one trick combos in sleep mode, stick to 1A for that. Semi-responsive is a niche rather than a valid end-game for the style. These types of throws are more like a throwback to the late 90s vision of an ideal yoyo before unresponsive yoyoing was even a thing. Nowadays it is basically crutched 1A play with a tug response rather than being true modern responsive play. Vesatile yes; more challenging, so satisfying in ways, but overall not an end-game definitive design.
The only metal yoyo that comes close to de-throning wood is the Weekender. Itâs a great yoyo, but it is still a bit hard on the return and lacks the nuance in response vs a wooden fixie. It spins longer for more intense tricks, but not as long as something id consider semi-responsive. Its basically a metal yoyo designed to the max to imitate a wooden fixed axle. Imo it achieves itâs goal in the best way metal can, but id pick up almost any wood over it.
Personally, (and I still consider myself a noob for the most part), I find modern responsive as a weird middle ground. Its definitely fun to play and helps me keep things tight but it just cant scratch the itch for a raw, natural, wood fixie or a wide, long-spinning unresponsive.
For me, the ideal modern responsive would lean more towards fixed axle territory. Something I can do stalls and whatnot on without an issue but also bang out a full trick with a hard throw. Not claiming its the best setup by any means, but Iâve been happy playing my Sherpa responsive with a dab of grease instead of lube.
Moonshine was nice, but I felt the gap is just too small. Iâd take the Weekender over it any day. I have a couple of Spinworthys that play awesome responsive, and the Woodboy is super fun setup responsive too. Itâs odd to me because, I use a 1/2 spec C in those, and in the past Iâve felt like the 1/2 spec was too small a gap.
@edhaponik has said he strives for a setup that allows him to do STM, and Spirit Bomb back to back, or something to that effect. Iâm not to that level, so for me itâs STM, and Mach 5. Thatâs my sweet spot.
I can do those two tricks on a properly setup metal or plastic responsive, and on a good fixed axle.
The Moonshine always snags or stops on Mach 5.
Of course, itâs fine to have a setup lean one way or the other, and sometimes you might be in the mood for something right in the middle. For me, I tend to lean toward a fixed axle for more responsive, and a bearing yoyo for less.
Examples would be Legend Wing for more responsive, and Deep State for less.
I do spend most of my responsive time on wood fixed axle yoyos.
650b is pretty perfect for me as far as a metal responsive. same with the daytona sb - just a slightly different shape and feel.
wood is my preference, and i mean⌠eH (obviously) and a well-tuned no jive top that list.
i donât fuss about the spirit bomb/shoot the moon thing much these days. i def lean a bit more aggressive on response since stalls, flips, and regens are more where itâs at for me than the classic 1a stuff.
Wood provides the perfect weight, feel and performance for modern 0A, I think. I have a 650b, and itâs not great. Feels too dense, itâs not responsive enough (even with cramming the bearing with thick lube) and the gap is too wide for some tricks.
I havenât tried any other metal responsives, but I believe on Kyle Nationâs word that the Weekender must be a really good one.
I have owned a Gamer by Rain City Skills which I thought was FAR too heavy for responsive play (as in modern 0A stuff like stalls and flips etc) and also a Yoyofactory Confusion which although slightly lighter and featuring an A size bearing just didnât really do it for me either. I would like to try a Weekender but to be fair Iâm not sure if I will bother splashing out on any metal responsives in the foreseeable future.
I have a Toybania Thing which is a POM responsive and although it features a slim C size bearing it is much nicer to play than metal responsive (at least for me).
Wooden Fixed Axle yoyos are where it is at. I had a Legend Wing but broke it through stupidity, regardless for the price they are fantastic once you break them in. I also have a TMBR 20-eh-teen which I love and is the yoyo I first landed a kickflip on so I am dead pleased about that! Wood seems to have the right weight and balance plus they all feel unique.
theodore, daytona sb, and my respawn are the favorites of my responsives. for wood itâs my eh⌠are they my ideal modern responsive set-ups? maybe not, but they are the best out there in my opinion. the feel between the three metal pieces is so unique with each providing a different experience.
is metal, or any other material better than wood, plastic, delrin⌠or any other material? why or why not?
why is wood subjectively better? it is not a consistent material. is it density? you can find metals, plastics, etc. with the same and more consistent properties. you canât just say âwood is perfectâ because you own a wood yoyo company, or thatâs what you like lol. it cannot be precision either.
i also ask this, if wood is better, or good as it is, why bother with trying to mess with it? why is a tunable wood yoyo even being considered? you are taking the wood out of the wood at that point, adding multiple unnecessary steps and expense to a manufacturing process, driving the price up on the customer - where there are already seemingly viable options available that wouldnât require tuning⌠weâre just cramming metal pegs into wood holes it seemsâŚ
so, is modern responsive w/metal, or any other material unique and niche. maybe? i, maybe we, donât have enough tools to experiment on and tell you though, at least when compared to the glut of unresponsives crammed down our throat.
I think the lack of consistency in wood is somehow an abstract benefit to wooden yoyos since it makes them all unique. This is also a disadvantage because it means a perfect wooden yoyo is just an accident. As for density, I donât think metals that can be comparable to wood exist. You can thin the walls and such to emulate the weight distribution, but metal is far more dense. It is possible for plastic perhaps, but is there even a made example that compares to wood fixies? (genuinely curious on this one).
Imo glued in wood yoyos are my current end-game. Screw out designs are only beneficial for axle knots and long term axle replacements. Being able to tune the yoyo is only a benefit if you want a narrower gap for tighter binds or want to screw with the response system personally. Ideally a glued yoyo is already tuned and never needs to be messed with.
This is why im asking. Unresponsive yoyo is basically at the point where the best yoyo is a matter of feel, but with responsives of various classes there are much less to choose from, and much less consensus. How are our yoyo makers supposed to make new responsive yoyos if they donât even know what people want? Currently they are just indulging their own desires; which is cool, but isnât really making the same progress that 1A yoyos have made. It is kinda strange that nobody can even nearly pinpoint what makes an optimal responsive yo.
the lack of consistency being an abstract benefit i would still consider subjective then, because it is still undefinable and unrepeatable, and varies dramatically repeatedly between woods, species, trees, etc. as for a comparable wood to metal, i can break out my mechanics of materials book, or a simple search on the internet will do. in addition, yoyo design with any material can make a repeatable, and consistent product out of any consistent material (within known and set engineering variances/tolerances set in advance). whether it be hollow bodies, or not, or a million other ideas.
i, for the record, am not saying anything is better. but, am being told one thing is better, and i just donât understand why.
as for the companiesâ responsibility, thatâs what i was getting at. and, i think itâs been a million dollar idea rolling through my head since i saw eosâs comment. like, what fool wouldnât read that and be like, âhey, letâs get this dude (or someone as good as him) a damn good (insert not wood material here) yoyo. itâs a shame people feel this way. thereâs an opportunity right here. why is no one paying attention? does 5is guy want some money to help us make us his dream (material thatâs not wood) yoyo?â
luftverk and ed got together and made one of the best responsives of all time, in my opinion. but, itâs out of the price range of most people, and there were 25. canât really tell what the entire market wants like that. there are other ways to find out though
a huge part of throwing wood has always been coming to terms with the inconsistency - the chaos - of the medium. just like living is about coming to terms with the inconsistency of the world (and ourselves). a wood yo-yo was once a living thing. you are a living thing, too. to be alive is to be constantly losing and finding your balance. to be in the groove one moment and out of it the next. in effect, to live is to vibrate, to precess, to wobble.
the incredible technological precision of our experience today convinces us that everything is better when itâs more predictable, and that under those conditions, success is best measured as âfurthest, fastest, mostâ. wood yo-yoâs arenât suitable for those metrics. you can do some of the same tricks with metal and with wood, but they are not the same thing. itâs the difference between wanting a yo-yo to get out of your way so you can master the content and wanting to learn about who you are, what you can tolerate, what you can accept.
i would not say that wood yo-yoâs are superior to metal or plastic ones at performing tricks (whether classic tricks or modern 0a or whatever else). but they are superior at providing an experience which forces you to accept limitations - the world as it is - and to still be creative within that space. by design, they put you into more direct contact with those forces which have the final say. with an unresponsive metal, youâre a spaceman flying in a rocketship. you want the yo-yo to provide freedom - space to explore. with a wood yo-yo, youâre on a raft at sea in a hurricane. the point is to feel the elements and find your way through them.
tuning a yo-yo, breaking in a yo-yo, knowing the nuances of how the string reacts to the axle, dealing with humidity, picking out string snags - these are all tricks, too. and while you can certainly focus on them on metal, with wood you have no choice. theyâre an integral part of the experience. and while i enjoy doing tricks on metal or plastic, that experience of throwing wood is truly what iâm about.
i like this response. itâs a philosophical experience on an inanimate object, and we must accept our limitations. is 0A strictly limited to wood, by definition, or should it be (this is rhetorical, to the group)? is 0A just an experience after all with no set bounds or rules, just the experience?
i also question tolerances set on a wood product then. how many wood pieces from a run donât make it to sale because of arbitrary definitions (vibe for example, as imposed by the unresponsive community), when really man, we should just let that one go - itâs frickin wood. why are we imposing on rafts the same standards as rocketships and still limiting the availability of these products?
I bought one of these and even though I love it, I still choose to use a wood yoyo when im in the 0A groove.
As for why wood is good, Edâs epic reply above says it better than I could. But it is also more than that. Metal is dense and hard, whereas wood is less dense and much softer on the catch. I am sure that plastics can yield more consistent results, but the feel is just not up to standard compared with wood imo.
In the meantime I am ordering some bearing blanks from Luftverk and will install them in a few compatible yoyos for a test on this.