Vibe causes fixes not modification section worthy ?s

General Yo-Yo
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Ok. I was just having a conversation with RobK about collectors yoyos and how when I purchase them I tend to refrain from really playing them like my other high end yos that are still in production.

He made a comment about how he has no problem playing his “collector” throws over carpet and that its not a big deal to him. I have no issues with his logic or how/where he decides to play his throws even if they are platinum plated. My point is I’ve seen/read where people have what appears to be mint throws with a little “vibe”. This brings next question.

How many factors can play into a throw having vibe from a yoyo that didnt exhibit said vibe from the manufacturer? Just because there aren’t flat spots or dings doesnt mean that its mint is where this is going. Are bearing seats being bent in these cases? Like will enough throws banging on the carpet cause this issue?

Any info or expanded logic behind what appears to be a mint throw not actually being one would be great.

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Vibe and condition are often times completely unrelated. Obviously even a brand new yoyo can exhibit vibe on throw #1 straight from the manufacturer.

I have a number of yoyos that have never hit carpet or suffered any damage that resulted in no visible marks that may exhibit vibe depending on the bearing in it or the axle placement.

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This is why I stated this:

How many factors can play into a throw having vibe from a yoyo that didnt exhibit said vibe from the manufacturer? Just because there aren’t flat spots or dings doesnt mean that its mint is where this is going. Are bearing seats being bent in these cases? Like will enough throws banging on the carpet cause this issue?

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Well, I think one of the problems is that it is impossible to determine whether the vibe came from the manufacturer to begin with. I do not believe any manufacturer exists, who can maintain that every single one of their yo-yos left their facility with zero vibe. So, when we explore the phrase “didn’t exhibit vibe from the manufacturer,” I believe it is impossible to know that for sure, enough to move on from it.

If I could pretend that we could ever rule the manufacturer out, I would make several guesses about where the vibe might come from, but it would be pure speculation on my part. I think it can come from any number of things, including damage during shipping to the retailer, or from the retailer to you. This might be due to any number of things, bad packing by the manufacturer, bad packing by a retailer, mishandling by a postal worker, and so on. Basically the yo-yo being banged around a lot.

I think that playing something over carpet still makes it susceptible to damage…and vibe. The throw can hit a ceiling, a wall, furniture, so nevermind what is on the floor ::slight_smile: People act like they have carpet and padded walls, ceiling and furniture. I have played over carpet and had a yo-yo hit my button or zipper on my shirt. Every time I read about yo-yos over carpet or grass, I’m thinking give me a break. Once the yo-yo has been played to any great extent, it has been played…period. I would agree that a yo-yo hitting a carpet, depending on the quality of that carpet and padding under the carpet, the yo-yo is still experiencing the force of being slammed into something. While it may not be a surface that could cause a “ding,” the force is still there. So, I would not rule that out either.

I cannot tell you how many throws I have received yo-yos advertised as played over “carpet” or “grass” that had damage. It is minimal, but it still can be found and should not be described as “mint.” If you don’t vacuum your carpet, you might have debris in there that damaged the yo-yo. The yo-yo still may have hit the floor with great force to cause vibe…who knows? Especially if you don’t rake your grass every day, you have sticks and rocks and pebbles in that grass. I have not ever seen grass that didn’t have some hard debris in it. I have never seen that kind of grass in nature. So, I could go on all day.

This is a good question Midlifeyoyoman, but due to what goes on at the manufacturer, during shipping, and people having played it already and potentially banged it into a thin cheap carpet :smiley: there is a lot that can go wrong with a yo-yo to result in vibe :-\ That makes it near impossible to pinpoint it.

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Well I know that you can tune one drops since they have SE’s and hex’s so if those have been changed out at all it can be tuned for better smoothness. Some yoyos like yyf’s that have overly tight bearing seats can wear away over time as you unscrew it and screw it together but I’ve seen minimal vibe caused by this. Throws like the V and crazy D that use caps both tend to get vibe from unscrewing them too much for I think a similar bearing seat issue. offsetting the axle could do it as well. Many older anti-yos have a perfect setting for the axle and if it’s off at all it’ll have a good amount of vibe.

I’ve also seen throws that look mint but the person had it in their pocket at the time and accidentally sat on it causing a messed up bearing seat that would normally be unnoticeable minus the vibe.

Hardcoats can normally take a bearing and not show damage even if they’ve smacked the ground but there could still be minor changes throughout the yoyo that we can’t notice.

What’s even more scary is the fact that some manufacturers produce B grades without any way to tell the difference. I don’t think c3, crucial, yoyojoker or yoyorecreation has a way to determine it’s B grades from the A grades so it all comes down to the honor system and of course if you have it for a while you may just forget. Spindynamics may be one as well and who knows how many others do this as well.

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What difference does it make whether it came that way from the manufacturer or happened after unscrewing the yoyo once and screwing it back together? Unless the seller divulges this information when selling the item nobody will ever know when it developed the vibe. Like I said, bearing choice and axle placement are two factors that can add/remove vibe from a throw. I suppose slamming a yoyo into carpet repeatedly might mess up the axle seat or bend the axle but both of these things would probably be visible and make the yoyo quite clearly not “mint”.

The way people loosely throw around “mint” and “near mint” in yoyos compared to any other collectible I have ever seen is pretty comical anyway.

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Just about everything you wrote was what I left out of my OP on purpose. I think that people who take a $200+ throw and throw it over carpet are fooling themselves into thinking they are keeping the yoyo mint. I throw my yoyos in whatever room/atmosphere I may be in at the time its removed from my pocket. I may do a string length test just to verify how much room I have to play with but “know” the substance below me is only one of many obstacles that I need to be aware of at the time.

I may have not made myself clear enough and emphasized that when I said a yoyo that was shipped from the manufacturer didnt have any vibe truly meant exactly what I was typing. That is exactly what I mean! I don’t want that variable to be any part of this question/debate! So let’s assume from here on out that we are talking about how vibe gets introduced into a throw from us users that started with that yoyo which was perfect from the factory.

I have hit many of my throws rather hard on the floor even though it was carpet but under that “rug without padding under neath” it is 3/4" hardwood that doesn’t budge. I have also hit many many random items in my living room other than the rug I stand on while throwing. I have no feeling that I’m “protecting” my throws while I throw over the rug, I just happen to throw in that location since its where I spend most of my time watching the TV/children while entertaining myself with yoyos.

Just needed to clear up the part about a possible vibe coming from the manufacturer or being introduced before receiving it. That isn’t part of my question’s scenario.

What on/in the yoyo causes it to acquire a vibe that wasn’t there in the first place? And, if its not a bent axle of dinged up how does one figure out what is causing it? Like if its the axle seat somehow, could it be retreaded, etc…

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This is exactly why I brought this up and would like to know all the different ways a perfectly good yoyo can be abused enough to exhibit vibe but not show any signs of abuse. I truly only throw my collector pieces one good sitting to see how well they play and then only very carefully throw them for comparisons sake afterwards. I like collectibles and pay good money to keep them in such condition :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:. A padded room with padded floor could still take away a mint rating of a throw.

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I agree Midlifeyoyoman. I agree that all these “mint” looking throws on the outside, may have been punished a great deal, and the “vibe” is the only thing that just might indicate how much punishment it has endured. It’s very hard to tell.

Sparhawk brings up some interesting things. I have always wondered what specific parts of the yo-yo are causing the vibration that we feel. I would guess the possibilities are several.

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Vibe is what you feel when you touch the yoyo right? What you feel on the string is the bearing?

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Can I just add in a couple of small things here. So much of what has been said is excellent and true, but I just want to ask the OP and others what this really amounts to. OK so let me just ramble for a second here to explain: the only way to guarantee a new yoyo is to buy it from a manufacturer/reputable store, but even then the yoyo has often been thrown to ensure quality. Therefore throwing alone cannot induce an issue, unless I suppose it’s over a really long time period. Hitting the yoyo on a surface can, in principle and occasionally in practice, induce damage to the guts of the yoyo (e.g. a bent axle, damaged threads…) but not cause visible damage. Well then what do you want the yoyo for?

  1. A collectors piece - There’s nothing wrong with this in my book. It’s something to be looked at and enjoyed, perhaps rarely played. If this is true, who cares about whether the axle is perfectly straight?

  2. A yoyo to be thrown - In which case do we care about condition? 'Cause a yoyo to be thrown may incur some exterior (or interior) damage, but most importantly any damage shouldn’t effect play, but can effect visual things.

  3. A combination of the two - In which case the yoyo must be thrown but without ever touching anything or inducing any damage at all. But it has still been thrown.

Personally I focus on number 2, but there are some throws that I really want to be visually appealing too. I don’t normally mind tiny little bits of damage as long as a throw isn’t beaten, as long as when I acquire it I know what’s coming. Throws that I love I actually try and have 2 of, one gets thrown, one doesn’t as much.

Therefore, perhaps throws should simply described as visually mint. Or near mint in terms of play?

At the end of the day these are toys. Damage does occur. And I think that’s fine as long as everyone is clear when trading, which is often hard to ensure. But if this bothers you (a general you, not directed at anyone in particular) should you not just buy new and never buy from the BST? This is the only way to be sure - regardless whether that throw you really want is sold out or not.

In addition to this stuff can I just say that I don’t think it’s that hard not to damage a throw. I have only ever created visible damage on 2 yoyos by hitting a surface. These are the only times I’ve hit a surface with a yoyo.

Finally someone commented on B-grade throws not being indicated. I don’t mind. If you get a throw and you can’t tell if it’s B-grade or not, then who cares if it is? Personally the one thing I cannot bear are the new CLYW Fools Gold throws with the text plastered all over them. I understand why it’s done from a marketing standpoint, but boy does it suck to make the throw look that way. I would readily buy B-grades from any company, but not CLYW anymore. Which in itself I suppose is a good marketing ploy, cause it’ll make me buy A-grades. Except that some throws I just don’t buy on this basis. Ah well…

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So we get a mint yoyo that plays dead smooth out of the box.

Once the bearing gets worked in some vibe can come. Taking a yoyo apart to add lube, change a bearing, change response or pretty much any other reason to take a yoyo apart can change the “makeup” of the yoyo and add a touch of vibe.

Vibe can happy if you look at a yoyo funny. There are so many criteria that cause vibe. Sometimes it just happens.

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I think that sitting on it or stepping on it can cause vibe.

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Repetition of HARD hits may MAY eventually cause vibe.

Now now, hard or soft carpet? If its hard vs. Fluffy then it all changes.

I hit a yoyo super hard on the tile for a bent seat vibe and a stripped axle.

Out of my time only once 1 time…

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Thanks for some great responses. I was rather curious since I’ve hit most of my throws rather hard against the floor and a couple of times on tile but none of them have any vibe. A few tiny flat spots and scratches but no vibe yet. I also sit on my throws quite often but that hasn’t hurt one “yet”.

Lets say you have a rare throw that you use every day/everywhere and then it magically starts to vibe.

So I would try to tune the axle first.

If that doesn’t work replace axle.

Then what? Would sending it to 3yo3 for new threads be a good idea?

I can’t stand peak vibe at all and after RobK and I were talking about purposely depreciating a “collectors” throw by using it (not beating it but playing a mint throw carefully) I started wondering about all this.

I’m not worried about receiving throws with vibe from BST as its just part of buying used. That was never the purpose of this but some good points were made about it as well.

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If you play the rare/collectors throw but be cautious about it. The yoyo will be fine. I have yoyo’s in my collection that are many years old and look brand new. No marks at all. I would sell that as a mint yoyo… Yoyo’s clean up very easily and very well too.

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To answer the actual original question…

Assuming a yoyo is perfect to start with, what can cause vibe later on?

Here is a quick list of things that can cause vibe in a yo-yo. I’m going to assume that by “vibe” we mean -any- visible ‘ghosting’ when the yoyo is thrown, tapped with a fingernail to settle it, and held against a contrasting background.

1) Design/Manufacturing problems.

This is a broad one, so I’ll try to explain as clearly as I can.

This is a case where either due to an unstable design, poor material quality, or deficiencies in the manufacturing and quality control process, you end up with halves that aren’t actually perfect. They may in fact ‘appear’ perfect, in that when precisely aligned with the right matching half, they spin perfectly.

The most famous case of this is old Anti-Yo products. If you “tuned” them, they usually could be made smooth. This was done by changing the alignment of the halves to one another, usually by adjusting the placement of the axle.

Simply disassembling a yo-yo like this is likely to cause a problem… it may not go back ‘exactly’ as it was before, and as such may show vibration.

The other possible issue here is the threads on the half/axle. Some yo-yos are tapped such that the end condition of the hole isn’t consistent. Because you need to have some small amount of ‘play’ between the threads and the axle so that it doesn’t seize up, the axle can be forced slightly out of alignment when tightened. If the end of the hole isn’t clean/precise it can jam against the axle and torque it out of alignment within the threads.

2) Damage to a bearing seat

This is less common than a lot of people seem to think, but it certainly happens. Very tight bearing seats are more susceptible to this, but removing/replacing the bearing lots of times can wear the anodizing on the bearing seat. That allows for the bearing to be ‘loose’ and possibly out of alignment with the halves.

Note: A bearing seat being “bent” is -extremely- rare. I’ve seen many claims of it, 99% of which aren’t actually the case. It would require a huge amount of force in an unnatural direction, or a very weak design.

3) Bad bearing

Debris, poor quality, etc. can cause a vibration from the bearing itself. This usually doesn’t manifest itself in the yoyo actually vibrating, but it can if the tracks are loose/damaged enough. Normally this is a vibe that you “feel” more than one you can actually see.

4) Bent axle

Again this one is pretty rare, despite many claims of it. It takes quite a lot of force to bend a steel axle, especially with the yo-yo fully assembled. The halves of a yo-yo are supported not only by the axle, but by the bearing. To bend a fully assembled yo-yo, you must also damage/crush the bearing itself. It happens, but not as often as a lot of people claim. If replacing the axle solved the problem, it could be one of the issues mentioned above… it doesn’t mean the axle was actually bent.

Thats’s about it as far as things that wouldn’t have been a problem to start with…

Kyle

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All of my bearings can be felt to some extent on the string. But I have to pinch the string close to the yoyo.

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Interesting comments here. I would say that in the instance of your #1, a case queen that I bought as a collectible, it still matters about the axle being bent…and vibe. A collector can become a player by mere decision from one day to the next. A collector can either become a player tomorrow, or sold to another collector (or player). So, for those reasons, you don’t want to worry about a bent axle or excessive vibe and so on. So, caring about a bent axle would still apply even if the yo-yo was just a collector. After you pay for it, you can change your mind from one day to the next. That would not happen too often, but it does happen sometimes. That is why any amount of damage matters, even on internal parts of the yo-yo.

I would not agree with people who are concerned about damage simply buying new, because buying new is not always an option, from a collector standpoint. As a collector, I got in the game a few years ago, so if I followed that advice, I would pass up on everything that was out of production more than two years ago. If I were to do that, there would be no point in collecting. Many things even released today are limited, so I have to hunt them down after some initial release, if I want one. So, I’m left with the BST, Ebay and so on, where I must rely on others’ descriptions of their items. I think your point about people being accurate in BST descriptions is definitely the cure. Unfortunately, that has not always been something that sellers do, and then many of us complain. It works for me, that now I have just about everything I have wanted to acquire, that is no longer in production from years ago, and I will for the most part, be able to buy new at the outset from this point forward. This has decreased my frustration in that regard.

From a player’s standpoint, I see your point about minimal damage being not so big a deal. And, even then, I agree that I don’t like my belongings to look beat either. But, I maintain that buying second hand for a “player” I still want to know about damage and vibe accurately in a description. If they can tell me what caused the vibe…even better, but no one would bother, even if they knew in the first place :smiley: