Hi, I’m fairly new to yoyoing, so I definitely haven’t explored using counterweights yet, but I bought several Duncan yoyos that came with them. For the heck of it, I placed each one on a small scale I bought for weighing jewelry, and it was interesting what I found. I have 8 counterweights, and they all weigh totally different, even when they look identical, they weigh significantly different in some cases. Here’s what the scale read (and it was calibrated with a 100g weight prior to weighing):
Yellow ball counterweight #1 = 12.64grams
Yellow ball counterweight #2 = 13.05grams (identical looking but significant different weight)
Blue Chipmunk head= 11.70grams
Grey Chipmunk head = 11.68grams (they are basically the same weight, not much difference)
Panda = 11.72grams
Skull = 11.48 grams
Red dice = 10.49grams
yellow dice = 10.57grams
I guess the shocker here was that not only were they all a different weight, the ball is much different than the dice…and even among the balls there is a significant difference. I don’t use these, so I’m not sure what the real difference is in play…but I’m sure they must feel different. I just wonder if anyone has noticed much of a difference playing with a ball or a dice…?
Hmm interesting findings. i wonder if two of the same type of yoyo will have a tiny weight difference. you should test that for like a freehand zero or some other popular throw!
Three of the counterweights came with a blue/red freehand zero(ball, dice, chipmunk), another three came with a black freehand zero (ball, dice, chipmunk), the panda came with a blue freehand 2, and the skull came with a metal drifter. That means the ones that came from freehand zeros (same yoyo) are even slightly different…which is weird. Not sure if it’s noticeable in play…but I wonder.
Sorry misunderstood earlier post. As for the yoyo itself, I tested 2 freehand zeros mentioned above…
Black freehand zero weighs 65.50
Red/Blue freehand zero weighs 64.99
Must mean that no two objects are exactly the same weight anyway. But as for the counterweights, the ball and the dice are waaay different…weird. I totally thought the only difference was the shape of them. By the way, the string was removed from both yoyos before the weigh in. Difference with the yoyos is a half gram (not too bad), but difference between a ball and a dice is several grams…
I find it interesting that the weights vary, but that could be to due to the density of material used at the time of creation. Many variables can affect how things are made unless excessive efforts were done to ensure total control over the entire environment. Humidity, temperature, release agents, how clean are the injection nozzles, type of plastic(clear vs. colored… which is heavier? I do not know), weight of the colored plastic granules. If items are outsourced, they may be buying in bulk where that supplier isn’t as concerned about exact specs and is working more in a range of tolerances that were specified by Duncan. Also, I’m sure yoyos themselves have variations within specs. I work off the assumption that the posted specs are the published specs that the manufacturer is aiming for. Therefore, there should be a range of tolerances of +/- a set amount from that target number to account for slight variations.
I’m planning on purchasing a small portable 300 gram scale for weighing jewelry for the specific intentions of weighing yoyos, but I also have other items I do need to weigh as well(including, believe it or not, jewelry).
For most of the differences mentioned, it’s half a gram or less, which I think to most of us, may be undetectable. I know I can’t tell those kind of differences.
I think the counter weights are meant to be different weights. I recall seeing an item description somewhere that said the had different weights somewhere
Yeah, I was weighing old jewelry on mine to sell it at online auction. I bought yoyos with the money I made too. I bet you’re right, the differences won’t be detectable anyway. I bet I have counterweights on the low and high end of the variable scale, that’s all. Be sure to buy the 300 gram, cause I bought the 100 gram which is a bit too small for a lot of things I’d like to put on it. Just another gadget for me to mess around with. I bet mx.yoyo is right too…may have been done on purpose as well. Thanks for responding too.
It’s not terribly surprising that they’re different, given that they’re made of completely different materials, and seem to have been designed to match closer in size than weight. I’ve recently started using an oversized d12 myself, and it’s noticeably heavier than the standard Duncan die. I haven’t weighed it but my guess would be somewhere around 13-14 grams.
I think the specific weight/size/shape of counterweights is really a matter of personal preference. I’ve seen people use steel nuts, small plastic figurines, stacks of k’nex pieces, dice of all shapes and sizes, you name it. There’s another thread here detailing homemade ones comprised of a small plastic tube, some clay and then layers of yoyo string, those I would imagine are a bit lighter (maybe 10 grams?).
No doubt there’s limits, if it’s too light it won’t counterbalance the yoyo properly, but if it’s too heavy it can mess with momentum as well. I would guess you could go a lot heavier than a standard Duncan weight before you started to really have trouble though, maybe even half the weight of an average yoyo (about 30 grams). Those steel nuts have to weight a ton, but people use 'em.
Personally I’ve discovered I prefer my new heavier counterweight. I was concerned it would be an issue at first, having only ever used Duncans prior, but it’s nice. Has a nice “heft” to it. More than anything I’d say experiment and see what feels right to you.
Makes sense, I bet the weight matters more than the shape or design too…but another question. When professionals go to competition, does someone check their counterweights and weigh them to a particular standard, or can people just walk on with whatever equipment they want? Do they care if it’s a legit Duncan counterweight? Could you modify it or custom your own for competition?
My thoughts about this are mixed. But, I doubt Duncan is going to bring litigation against players using “non-authorized/licensed” CW’s. If you don’t like what Duncan is going to offer directly or license through third parties, then players shouldn’t be restricted to pre-made CW’s, especially if they want something bigger, smaller, heavier, lighter or they just want to be unique. Some people express themselves through their yoyos. I don’t see why they can’t make their own CW’s of their own creation without having to worry about retribution.
I have a Terrapin X bearingized die and I’m debating where to put that… maybe on my modified FHZ which currently has a Duncan bouncy ball CW on it.
I will say this, I’ve been screwing around with 5A play recently and it’s a whole new challenge in the realm of yoyo for me, which is already a big challenge. I’ve also been playing around with 4A and having a blast with that. But, back to 5A, it’s just a big thing to get used to, so I can see how weight preferences can be a massive factor. Personally, I want ROUND, but I have to admit using the blue die included on my Skeleton Warrior Freakhand feels pretty good too. I’m sure the more I try this style, the more I’ll develop preferences. However, my plans do NOT include competition so I doubt I’ll have issues.
Having never even been to a competition, I have no idea. I would be curious to know the answer to this as well though.
Like Studio42 mentioned, Duncan actually has a patent on the counterweight play style. It was one of their team members who first popularized the style, and they made the clever business move of jumping on it and patenting it. That’s why you don’t see other yoyo companies selling yoyo’s that include a counterweight, or even market any of their throws as “counterweight ready” or “great for 5A” or anything like that. If they do, they have to pay licensing fees to Duncan. So far, Yoyojam is the only one I know of to have actually done it, so they could sell their Takeshi die legally. Once they got the license though, that gives them free reign to create more 5A throws, hence the Pinnacle (which I love).
I’ve read Duncan’s documentation regarding the licencing requirements, and it doesn’t state anything about just using counterweights for personal use or even competition play, the rules are all specifically about sales and merchandising. I would assume you could use whatever you want for a competition, but I suppose it might be up to whoever is actually hosting it.
Yeah one day I was playing with one of the dice and hit the ground it split open and most of the inside was hollow, I guess it had a bubble in the molding process.
So I went in and weighed the ones I had and kept the ones that where with in a 10th of a gram of each other. The rest got traded away.
You can get a ton of just the red dice and they will all weigh more or less then each other. Same with the balls, and the yellow balls weigh more then the red, which weigh about the same as the blue.
of course, in EYYC a player even used a can opener as a CW
about the patent, I had the chance to discuss it with Brandon Jackson directly and he answered all my questions. (for the anecdote, a Severe hooked up with a Terrapin dice was sitting on the table)
so to sum things up
any independent or sponsored player is free to use anything he or she fancies as a counterweight or yoyo for 5A play.
things get more complicated if said player is an employee of a brand, displaying CW play publicly (as an employee of that brand)
the patent only applies in US and Germany
anyone can contact Duncan for licensing 5A related equipment for sale (in US and Germany) and advertising. details will be worked out at both parties discretion.
Duncan is expected to enforce the patent, failure to do so could result of the patent to be nullified.
if you’re not in US or Germany, you can do/sell/advertise whatever you want. But if you then want to sell in the US or in Germany, you’ll have to work things out with Duncan, but they are open to it.
It sounds to me then that the real issues with the patent are for those making CW’s or making 5A bundles within the two regions you mentioned: US and Germany.
The best part is that it sounds like Duncan isn’t necessarily trying to be jerks about this. It sounds like they are willing to work with anyone who will work with them. It’s become apparent that YoYoJam is willing to work with Duncan, releasing 2 models specifically targeting the 5A market, and a counterweight as a single item by itself. With a company like YYJ getting permissions via whatever the contract states, it lets them do things like experiment with sizes and weights. It will be interesting to see where they take it. If Ducan will work with YYJ, no doubt they’ll be willing to work with any other company that approaches them. It appears that these deals are going to be mutually beneficial.
I also understand having to enforce the patent. Business is business. At least the holder is willing to work with those who approach them. This shows they are trying to not let their patent be used as an excuse to stall or prevent the progress of products for the 5A division.
I still don’t like the concept of patenting a style of play. But, what is done is done.
If memory serves(and it may not), my Terrapin X Bearingized dice is 17mm. I haven’t compared it to a Duncan dice. I know most razor edge casino dice are 19mm. I know, I’m having some custom dice made for promotional items. WHEN the money is right.
I’d say anything around “superball” size is pretty much spot on. But, some people like larger or smaller. You could use a nice heavy steel 1" hex nut, but I think that would be a bit foolish if you’re a beginner. Pain can be used for motivation, but in this case, I recommend against causing pain.
