How do you pronounce "PHENOMizm"?

English is messed up. There’s no doubt about that! It’s one of the most exception-filled languages there is, and we’re missing out on some useful verb tenses. :wink:

“Phenom” is pronounced “fee-nom”, though. I don’t think there’s much debate there.
“Phenomenal” is pronounced “feh-naw-meh-null” (or thereabouts… the “feh” is the important part here)
“PHENOMizm”… totally up for debate. :wink:

Playing devil’s advocate against myself for a moment… if “PHENOMizm” is indeed meant as a riff on the word “phenomenal” rather than an extension of “phenom” (I really don’t know… it seems pretty clear to me, but I don’t know), it should probably have the “feh” after all. Although even then it’s awkward to figure out where to place the stress…

An appeal to authority can be a fallacy…unless the authority is the creator of the yoyo, then it is much less likely to be a fallacy. I don’t think it is those of us who feel the evidence is strongly on the side of “FEN-om-ism” who are plugging their ears and saying, “la-la-la-la-la!” ;D

Do you have any evidence that the creator is mis-pronouncing his own named creation?

Greg is saying that the Phenom is said “fee-nom” like the actual word so he thinks the Phenomizm, being based off the Phenom should be said in the same way, “fee-nom-izm” I personally agree with this and it’s how I say it… Why would the Phenom be said “fee-nom” but the Phenomizm “feh-nom-izm” it just doesn’t make sense…

Actually what doesn’t make sense is why phenom is pronounced “fee-nom” and phenomenal is pronounced “feh-nom-min-al.” They come from the same root (I believe) so why is there a difference?

P.S. I just checked Google translate (I know, not really reliable, but I just did it out of curiosity) and both phenom and phenomenal are pronounced with a “feh-nom.” :stuck_out_tongue:

Because that is how the creator of both yoyos pronounces them? :wink: Actually, it does make sense from a marketing standpoint - to have 2 similarly named yoyos have different pronunciations to better differentiate them. There are many possible reasons - maybe he and his team just wanted to base it on the word “phenominal” instead of “phenom” (who knows), but if the creator says FEH-nom-ism while he also has a throw he created that is named “FEE-nom” it seems pretty clear.

I agree with GregP, that you don’t necessarily have to mimic someone’s accent or native linguistic characteristics when pronouncing something they named. The yoyo is clearly named after an English word–I don’t think there is any need for native English speakers to try to pronounce it as if they were not native speakers. Mickey’s English is very good, but he still has a noticeable accent and sometimes uses unnatural pronunciation. Japanese and English have different phonetic properties, with different concepts of syllables, stresses, vowel diversity, etc., which is why many Japanese people struggle with English pronunciation and vice versa.

In this case, he is using Japanese vowel sounds that do not occur in the native English pronunciation of the word. He is not pronouncing it like a native English speaker would say phenom, phenomenal, or any other variant of the word. His pronunciation is a mix of the English pronunciation and the rules of Japanese (and again, Mickey is typically much less noticeable about this than many Japanese people, but it is occasionally noticeable). That is probably not a reflection of his intent for what the yoyo should be called, but just of his own manner of speaking. Similarly, the vast majority of Japanese players would probably not pronounce Ronin the same way that SPYY would, nor should they be expected to.

I thought it was interesting to hear how Mickey pronounced the name, especially how it does not match either form of the English root (“phenom” vs “phenomenon”/“phenomenal”). The “e” sound does not match either one, and the “o” sound is different as well. His pronunciation, like everyone’s, is affected by his native language and accent. I think the chosen stylization and the relationship to the Phenom indicate Mickey’s intent was to make the word PHENOMizm simply an extension of Phenom, but even that doesn’t necessarily indicate how it should be pronounced. English has complex pronunciation standards, so the same root can take on different pronunciations in different forms of the word (i.e phenom is pronounced differently from phenomenon just because the rest of the word is different), and even the same word can have multiple pronunciations. Since it is not a real word and there is no clear reading of the word in English, I think it is a stretch to say there even is a single correct pronunciation. Different people will read it differently, which is fine.

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(note, there were 3 more replies before this, but I’m already expending a lot of energy, so edits are minimal! Not meaning to ignore the last three replies…)

No, the “la la la” part is with regards to the Tiger counter-example I already presented and which has been conveniently ignored. The yoyo is called the Tiger. Like the animal. Jacques Laroque, who “created” it (creating and having a signature throw are not necessarily one and the same, and we have no idea about the naming process, by the way) is captured on film saying, “You know, dees new jojo of mine, the Teeger… is a varry naice!”… do we have to start pronouncing it “Teeger”, or is it OK to say “Tiger”?

Here’s yet another one along the same lines that doesn’t factor regional accent in: I’ve decided that physics is my bag, and I read up on all kinds of particle physics… I become kind of a physics fanboy. I decide to manufacture and sell a small run of yoyos that I have called the Baryon. In an interview or video, I refer to it as the “BAR-yon” (two syllables). Why? I’ve only ever seen it in print! I’ve never tried pronouncing it before, or I’ve always just pronounced it incorrectly! Is that now the name of the yoyo and the world should stick to it? Or can you happily ignore the creator’s mispronunciation and call it the “Bah-ree-yon” (or “bay-ree-yon”)?

Do people actually pronounce phenom “Feh-nom”? That’s news to me! Again, though, I’ve always said that the pronunciation of PHENOMizm isn’t my main point… it’s mainly squashing the appeal to authority as a logical fallacy.

Did a little research and I was right, both ways are correct. However personally “feh-nom” makes more sense, just to make it match the other similar sounding words. Anyways “fee-nom”, “feh-nom”, just take your pick and you will be okay. :wink:

Agreed!

So, Mickey’s pronunciation doesn’t have to be the “right” one. :wink: That was my point; not that “Fee” is correct (though I’ll admit I had never heard anyone use “feh-nom” in my life) but rather that it isn’t correct simply because that’s the way Mickey says it.

As for parallel pronunciations, a good example is the “finite” series of words. We say “There are a ‘fye-night’ number of PHENOMizm yoyos that have been made.” But we don’t say, “there is a seemingly ‘in-fye-night’ number of stars in the sky.” Words with the same root don’t need to be pronounced the same way. :wink:

Well, you are almost half right.

Dictionary.com not only notes both pronunciations being acceptable, but you can click on the little speaker, next to the word and a gentleman very clearly says, 'fi(uh not fee) nom.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/phenom.  < click and listen… No mistake.

The reason I stated that you were almost half correct is simple. As everybody that ‘did’ bother to watch that 1 minute linked video about the Phenom, most of the kids that chimed in with the yoyo name, said ,‘fi-nom’. Most of them obviously had varying degrees of thick accent. But the majority clearly(accent and all) say, ‘fi-nom’.

But the important things to consider are:1 Mickey speaks English with very little accent. So when he says ‘fi-nom’ it is not the result of some language barrier, 2. Mickey named the yoyo. And he named it the Fi-nom.
It is his design, his choice of name and his pronunciation.

I’ve been with Yoyojam since there ‘was’ Yoyojam, lol. I know most(not all) of the names of the yoyos and how the names are to be pronounced, before most of you even know the yoyos exist.

Before the yoyo name was even finalized, it was spoken…‘Fi(fih)-nom’.

It was asserted that ‘I am a logical guy’?  I would agree with that assertion.

And to me, logic dictates, regardless of: linguistics and Native English speaking expertise and quirks in pronunciations of words based on various accents; the bottom line is that the Name of the yoyo is What it is, not what you just arbitrarily think it is.

Do I really care? Not really… I have about a dozen Phenoms and Phenomisms. So, to me, counting them accurately is more important that saying their names with an Irrefutable Exactness.

Mickey named it… Mickey speaks it… Anything else is entirely superfluous.

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That’s all good, yoyodoc, and I accept most of what you say. I should also reiterate (which you choose to ignore) that I never claimed “fee” is the “correct” way to pronounce the yoyos name. I’ve said right from my first reply that it could be “fih”. As the thread developed, I came to believe it’s both. But in any event, I didn’t champion a pronunciation, I declaimed Appeal from Authority, which you are clinging to, despite all implied invitations to learn what it is and why it’s not logical.

Also conveniently ignoring all my counter-examples about how something can be mispronounced by “the source” and still not be correct just because it comes from “the source”. The word is not BAR-yon. :wink: In logic, counter-examples are used to show cases (intentionally silly at times) where something being claimed as the rule does not apply. But I don’t need to explain counter-examples to you-- you use them all the time! I’m surprised you’re not crediting these.

The guy pronouncing on the website… who cares? In the text pronounciation guide, there are both. I can find any number of instances where people say “phenom” with “fee”. Here’s Mirriam-Webster for you: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/phenom
. I don’t know anybody in my life, in fact, who would even imagine anything other than “fee” as being correct. My wife was perplexed it was even a question up for debate. Looking around at polls online (we’re not the first forum to discuss this!) you will find every poll with “fee” as the leading choice of pronounciation. Anyhow… all that to say, your lone spoken recording on one online site could never have been the definitive and I suspect you know that. It can be pronounced both ways, which I think is now beyond debate…I for one am glad to have learned this.

But back to your continued Appeal from Authority: I don’t understand why you can’t see that it doesn’t matter if that’s how Mickey says it. :wink: Take the imaginary Jacque Laroque example… you and I know the yoyo would be called the Tiger in English, despite his interview. Or take the very real YYR example. How do you pronounce Sleipnir? Would you call it the Esleppuh-neeruh (there’s no real way to imitate the accent in roman text, so let’s not get all offended and please give benefit of the doubt to me here…) or do you pronounce it one of the 3 ways I proposed? Or do you pronounce it the Old Norse way?

Because I’m a sucker for punishment, one more! YoyoEngland makes a signature yoyo for Eddie the Eagle, which they call the Tomato. You can see where this is going. I do NOT need to call the yoyo “the Toh-mah-toh” because that’s how Eddie refers to it. I can happily call it “the Toh-may-toh”. :wink: Apparently the YYJ core comes from a region that pronounces “phenom” with a “fih”. Or they didn’t know one way or the other and just believed the guy speaking it from an online dictionary. :wink: I couldn’t honestly say. But that doesn’t mean everybody in the world needs to use that particular pronunciation!

Do I really care? Not really. My only point was to show that Appeal from Authority is a logical fallacy. If you’re not interested in understanding the pure logic of it or the pretty self-explanatory counter-examples, I feel a bit badly that I’ve droned on about it… it’s a bummer to try to share a thought (logic is something I’m enthusiastic about) with an unwilling audience. But make no mistake, it’s not correct just because Mickey pronounces it that way for all the reasons I’ve already talked too much about. :wink:

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I’m going to end this once and for all.

From now on, that yoyo will be called “Bob”.

Discussion over!

But Studio! You would pronounce that “Baaarb” whereas I would pronounce it “Bob”!

Final diagnosis:

http://relationshipplaybook.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Checkmate.jpg

The Doctor hath spoken.

Next word: Aluminium!

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I used to give a lecture, a few decades back. It was titled, ‘Communication; The Key to Understanding’.

It should be pretty obvious that I would grasp the reality that Ignorance through intentional avoidance, would be the door to failure.

I have not and am not ignoring you or anything you stated.

This is a simple case of you being technically correct and Wrong at the same time.

For a fleeting moment, just focus only on the following>>>

The Phenom is a Signature yoyo of Mickeys’. He named the yoyo. He pronounces the name of the yoyo as Fih-nom.

It doesnt really matter what either of us or anybody else thinks is the Correct way to say Phenom. Because Mickey is not petitioning Webster or the Inter Galactic Linguistic Society to change Wording in the Bible.

This isnt about the general use of the word or the pronunciation of the word in any other context.

This is specifically centered on Mickeys’: choice of the name, spelling of the name and his choice of how the name of the yoyo is spoken. I think that seems to be creating some difficulty for you and others.

There is absolutely No penalty for saying the name of his yoyo, any way you want.

Make yourself happy.

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Was thinking of exactly the same “tomato” argument, though I doubt I would’ve been bothered writing it up and entering this rabbit hole of a debate.

Basically the word “phenom” has multiple correct pronunciations. Mickey chose this word as the name for his yoyo. He used the pronunciation he was familiar with. That doesn’t suddenly mean all other pronunciations are now incorrect.

Mo, based on your argument any name only has one correct pronunciation, that being the one used by the name giver. So Mo care to share how you would pronounce a name like Mazda?

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But yoyodoc, you DID entirely ignore it. Again. :wink: Saying “I didn’t ignore it” doesn’t mean you didn’t… You still haven’t acknowledged the Appeal from Authority as a standard logical construct (which I didn’t TRULY expect you would, though I hoped), and you didn’t address a single counter-example (which is the part that surprises me).

It’s not just a “fleeting moment”, but my ENTIRE ARGUMENT and EVERY WORD I WROTE that I’m focusing on the statement you put forward. :smiley: That’s the part that sends me reeling. That it’s the ONLY part I’m focusing on and yet you’re inviting me to focus on it! It’s like my saying “that’s not true or valid, Mo” suddenly causes everything else to go in one ear and out the other and you repeat, “but listen to what I just said.” “I did. I know what you are saying. And it’s a logical fallacy.” “Wait just a moment here, and focus on what I said, though.” sigh… I feel like an Abbott and Costello skit for an audience of none. :wink:

The onus isn’t on me to demonstrate how appeal from authority is a logical fallacy; that work has been done and it is now considered a “given”… just like an ad-hominem argument, false syllogism, straw man argument, red herring, circular argument, and any other fallacy you could think of. But I get that not everyone knows formal logic, so there are also abundant and sufficient counter-examples for illustration. But you didn’t address a single one of them. Are you calling that signature yoyo a “teeger”? The other one a “tomahto”? How are you pronouncing Sleipnir or Mazda?

So yet again (it’s making me smile and shake my head over here) I don’t give a rat’s derriere how PHENOMizm is pronounced since it seems at this stage self-evident that it’s both. Pronunciation is not my point and has never been! Heck, I’m not even convinced that I would stick to “fee” at this point. Since both are correct, I’m willing to pronounce it the way Mickey does. Or not. I really don’t mind either way! You still seem to think I’m trying to push one as the correct pronunciation, when I’ve stated rather explicitly and many times that I’m not. That’s another wilful avoidance. “I don’t care how it’s pronounced. I’m just talking about logic here.” “Hey, if you want to stick to the WRONG pronounciation, fill your boots, there’s no penalty.” sigh

I really should know better by now… unless I’m talking with other logic enthusiasts, it always seems to fall on deaf ears! I hardly blame you, yoyodoc… you’re stuck on saying “you’re wrong” or “you’re half-wrong” or whatever… it’s pretty darned hard to do the required reading and take a break from trying to make sure people know they’re wrong. As you may have guessed, I’m speaking from experience. :wink:

Good lord it’s like reading a Dr Suess story. I have no idea what you’re arguing about any more.

This makes perfect sense to me. The argument isn’t over how the word “Phenomism” is pronounced, but how the name of Mickeys yoyo, the “PHENOMizm” is. Due to this, Mickeys pronunciation should be taken as the correct one, especially considering how suprisingly good his english is.

And personally, yes, if someone that spoke decent enough English called his throw the “Tiger (Teeger)” then I would to use that pronunciation. After all, we aren’t talking about the animal, but the name of the throw.

If Onedrop made a yoyo called the “Ghoti” and told me it was pronounced “Fish” then that’s exactly what I would call it. I thought the Chik was pronounced “Sheek” until I was corrected, and now I say it correctly.

Gambit, it’s hardly my fault that you missed what I was arguing… it was there in black and white a few pages back! If it seems like Dr. Seuss to you, imagine how it feels to me, repeating myself over and over… I feel like Sam I Am, but in a really boring Philosophy 101 class. :wink:

And I get that what yoyodoc is saying makes sense not only to you, but other people too. That’s often the way of the world… rhetoric is a pretty big stick, and when you hit people with it, logic doesn’t matter so much anymore. We see it every day. I can accept that it’s the way of the world, but I don’t have to like it and I definitely won’t drop valid logic in the face of rhetoric. There are thousands and thousands of times in our lives that we agree with something because it “seems to make sense” and doesn’t require much critical thinking. “Well, that resonates with me. It’s how I feel, too. That’s what I’m going with” is a pretty expected default reaction.

Your own counter-example can be addressed. Chik is not a word in English, so it should be pronounced as intended for an English audience, which is “Chick”. The famous example of Ghoti has been addressed by smarter linguists than me, and it’s accepted that based on our (sometimes wonky, but still applicable) rules, it should not actually be pronounced “fish”. However, if One Drop came out and said, “We know about the linguistic debate, which is a bit of an office in-joke for us! We like to call it “fish” to spite linguists and you should, too,” I would also call it “fish” with a wry grin on my face.

“Phenom”, however, is also just a word in English with two alternate pronunciations. There’s no inside joke or conscious thought to selecting one over the other. I’m willing to bet my neck nobody ever sat down and said, “Look… there are two pronunciations out there… Mickey, which one should we enforce?” Nobody would or should really care and nobody would be interested in “enforcing” it… they just want the yoyo to sell. :wink: And when the name was chosen, the people in the room likely just took it as a given that “fih-nom” is correct. People who typically pronounce “phenom” with “fee” are perfectly justified calling it the “fee-nom-ism”. Some of the same who want to do it the “Mickey” way as a hat-tip (or whatever) will do so without blinking. If you see the English word “phenom” and say it “fih-nom” aloud, I can’t think of a reason in the world you’d ever question that pronunciation.

So, full circle: it doesn’t matter what Mickey says. You have your own reasons for pronouncing it “fih-hom” (although I could have sworn more Brits were inclined to say “fee-nom” when talking about sports prodigies… luckily, you get to be on-board with YoyoEngland and call it “The Tomahto”, thus avoiding any frivolous debates).

But you should be able to spot the difference between, “I will pronounce it that way because Mickey does” (which is fine), and “I will pronounce it that way because it is correct. And it is correct because that’s the way Mickey says it” (which is what yoyodoc is arguing, and which is invalid). In formal logic, there’s a world of difference between those. To the person who don’t give a ____, they probably seem pretty much that same. :wink:

I had to quote the original question here. It looks like you asked this question, a very specific one, about how to say the name of this yo-yo (that you just got). I did not read that you were looking for the way to say the word in any other context, nor the root word, or anything else. You appeared to be asking simply, how to say the name of that specific yo-yo that you got.

Yoyodoc gave you a great answer, and someone posted a video, of the man who named the yo-yo, saying the name of it, as he intended, which is also a great source. I think anyone can say the word the way they wish. It is a free country, at least mine is. But, you stated that you “never heard anyone say the name.” So, the video of the man who named the yo-yo, saying the name, is an excellent source of reference.

Great job Yoyodoc…asked, and answered.

Can we just agree to disagree?