If you previously read my embarrassingly-long post about slimline throws, you’ll remember that I was enthralled with my silver Sliver. I’ve been throwing that consistently ever since I got it, and I’m still loving it. But yesterday the Duncan Butterfly Al arrived, and I couldn’t wait to try it out. There’s a lengthy story here about responsive/unresponsiveness, swapping bearings, etc., but I’ll spare you the gory details. The end result is that I put a DS bearing in the Butterfly to make it fully unresponsive, and am using a Bad Wolfe Slimm string in it. I’m still trying to get a good feel for the Butterfly since I haven’t had too much time to throw it yet. I should have a better idea of what I think of it within the next couple of days, but I think it’s reasonable to compare it to the Sliver since they’re very similar in diameter, width, and weight. So if anyone has both and has opinions on how they compare, I’d love to hear your thoughts.
Also, has anyone tried the butterfly’s extra axle/bearing? It looks like it came with a responsive full-sized C bearing installed, but there’s an extra bearing that’s about half the width of the original one. If anyone has tried using this bearing in the butterfly, I’d like to hear about how that changes the play style.
The slim bearing will make it more responsive than it is stock.
I’ve owned a Butterfly AL in the past. Its a really nice responsive yoyo, and plays pretty well unresponsive. The gap on the Butterfly is only 4mm, even with a full sized C-bearing, combine the relatively narrow gap for unresponsive with the extremely high inner walls make for a slightly frustrating unresponsive experience.
Even though specs are “similar” they’re very different playing yoyos and I’m not quite sure I’d put them in the same category outside being slim, aluminum yoyos with c-sized bearings.
The Butterly AL is fun, but I’ve only set it up responsive and the Sliver I have is set up as it came: unresponsive. I’d agree with @bheinz63 that it doesn’t feel like it’s in the same category as the Sliver. I think maybe the YYF Sherpa is more comparable.
Thanks for the replies. The specs only vary by a couple of mm, so I would have thought that they’d feel pretty similar to one another. I’m trying to refrain from deciding on how I feel about the butterfly until I’ve given it more time, but I will say that I agree with you on the ‘very different playing yoyos’ part - they feel so different from one another that it’s not an easy comparison. If you had told me a few months ago that a couple of mm here and there would totally change my feel and opinion on a yoyo, I would have thought that would be impossible. I don’t know, maybe I’m just getting a better feel for things after putting in a lot more time throwing. I’m certainly more attuned to slight changes in the string now than I ever was before, whether it’s a minor thing like too much tension or something more dramatic like an axle knot. And you’re definitely right about the narrow gap having an impact. I’ve only had to deal with one axle knot on the butterfly so far, but it required more precision and patience than I’m used to needing for that situation.
One of the reasons that I asked the question originally was because I figured that they should play similarly, and yet they don’t. So I wanted to check in with other more experienced players to see if my initial impressions were way off base or not. I also appreciate the info on the extra bearing. I figured that putting a slimmer bearing in it would increase its responsiveness, but honestly, this is the first yoyo that I’ve gotten with a responsive wide bearing installed and an extra slim bearing. So thanks again for the helpful info!
The biggest thing that would make them play incredibly different from a glance is both the walls and the general weight distribution. I haven’t played either, but at a glance like others have said I wouldn’t have even put them in the same category.
The low walls of the sliver make it ideal for hitting string tricks since you’ll have minimal contact with the walls, and the weight is concentrated in the rims to make it as stable and long spinning as possible. The Butterfly AL has extremely high walls which means you need to be super accurate if you want to try and do unresponsive string tricks on it, since your string is much more likely to touch the sides of the yoyo while playing. But those high walls will give you a lot more control during regens and stalls and other responsive stuff. The capped design and higher walls also give the yoyo far less rim weight which means the yoyo just isn’t as stable and won’t sleep as long, but being less rim weighted is actually a good trait for responsive since it means the yoyo can flip and regen more easily.
In the same way you could throw a greased up half spec in the Sliver (please check the axle size and bearing posts before attempting this, anybody who reads this), the Sliver was explicitly made to be a good unresponsive yoyo and playing it responsive will end up with a weird and not great result. The Butterfly AL is going to be a much better unresponsive than the Sliver will be as a responsive, but the point is just that they were designed to be better at different things. The Butterfly AL was designed to be a better responsive yoyo.
Sorry if I’m just echoing stuff you already know, I just wanted to give my thoughts on them both at a glance since you were curious.
Oh, not at all! From my engineering background, I understand how the material, weight distribution, shape, etc. all affect how the yoyo plays. My problem, though, is that I don’t have enough experience to know definitively what kind of effect they’ll actually have during play So it’s one thing to say that one yoyo has higher walls than another, but I don’t yet fully understand how that difference changes other characteristics of the yoyo during play, like spin time or stability. For example, this was new to me:
“But those high walls will give you a lot more control during regens and stalls and other responsive stuff”
So I’m pleased that you mentioned something that perhaps others take for granted because I learned something new. I’ve been throwing unresponsive yoyos this time around (I originally got caught up in the late 90s boom), but even in the early days I was never advanced enough to do a regeneration or stall and didn’t even know about their existence.
I get the concept of rim weight, and have a bunch of bi-metals with heavier rims, so that helps me when figuring out if I might like a particular yoyo. But other concepts, like high walls, smchoove rings, etc. are areas where I don’t have a complete grasp of how they affect the yoyo during tricks. That’s why I’ve watched @nightshadow’s reviews several times apiece - they usually delve into aspects of the yoyo and then he covers how that changes the yoyo’s characteristics when he’s doing tricks with it.
So I appreciate the time that you took to explain this to me. Now I’m going to have to check out the walls of my favorite throws and see how they all compare!
I fully agree with @mable , I own both and though I haven’t altered the Sliver, I have played theAL both slim and wide responsive. I just received a third Butterfly I’ll be playing unresponsive, after FixedAxleFebruary.
After thinking about this some more, especially with everyone’s comments on how the AL is designed for responsive play, my plan is to get another one for responsive play. The current one still works just fine for me configured to be unresponsive, and it’s such a nice yoyo to hold/throw/look at that I don’t want to mess with it on the few occasions where I want to play responsive. So getting a second one for responsive play seems like the best solution, as then I’d have one for each style of play.
BTW, I now have a far better understanding of my experience with the YYF Confusion so thanks for everyone’s help!
I have both of these yoyos. I did make one of them so be sure to take my direct comparisons with a grain of salt and draw your own conclusions from experience. There’s been some discussion about responsive play so I’ll focus my comparison on that.
One important thing to note is that a difference in diameter is a big deal to a yoyo’s performance as it has a major influence on moment of inertia. Greater diameters will tend toward greater inertia. In the case of the Sliver and Butterfly AL, there is a difference of 2 mm in diameter and 2 mm in width. The width difference make a little difference in the hand but once you’re under 38 mm or so a slimline is just gonna feel like a slimline. Again the diameter here makes a bigger difference than width. You don’t feel the diameter when you hold a yoyo, you feel the circumference. So a difference of 2 mm in diameter is more like 2π mm in the hand.
Sliver has an 8mm axle and long axle posts, so it isn’t compatible with slim bearings. Instead it ships with a full width sealed and greased bearing for semi responsive play. Since it retains the full gap size, no axle swap is necessary. With that gap it leans toward long sleeper string tricks but it’s still tug/flyaway responsive thanks to the thick grease. If the spin gets too low for a tug response, the gap width allows for a smooth, familiar feeling bind. It’s reminiscent of early 00s 1a, when binds were becoming more common but hadn’t replaced traditional response completely. It’s tuned for responsive 1a more than a 0a or fixie experience, although I like to think it’s respectable at both ends of the spectrum.
The Butterfly AL is tuned in the opposite direction through its smaller gap, smaller diameter, less rim focused distribution, non-flush pads and tall flat walls. It feels great on classic style regens and it’s the best stalling yoyo that I’ve played. For the same reasons, it’s much more challenging to use as an unresponsive string trick yoyo, but that hollow capped feel keeps me coming back. My preferred setups on it are a thin lubed OD 10 Ball and the aforementioned sealed and greased bearing. It’s best at fixie tricks with a thick lubed slim bearing but I personally don’t do them often.
As for the head to head I think these yoyos are equally successful on their own terms and goals. I’d say the Sliver is a more capable all-rounder but the Butterfly AL hits a higher peak with its responsive in exchange for a less powerful (still fun and satisfying) unresponsive experience. They scratch different itches very well, so I’m glad I have both.
Thanks for all the helpful information, @Jamie_Larkins. That’s exactly the kind of stuff that I’m trying to learn since I’m still pretty new to this hobby.
So it’s one thing to say that one yoyo has higher walls than another, but I don’t yet fully understand how that difference changes other characteristics of the yoyo during play, like spin time or stability. For example, this was new to me: