Why F & F only?

General Yo-Yo
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Some ‘thoughts/concerns’ on this subject, come up several times a year, but the puzzlingly curiosity prevails, so here we go again…>

There was a time a few years back, when the IRS tried throwing a big wrench into the transmission by suggesting that people making over a certain amount of money on internet transactions would be subject to paying taxes on the capital they generated.

….At the time it seemed somewhat understandable. Seems they are perpetually focused on Squeezing money out of us.

Within the year, they backed off their stance because it wasn’t well thought out and they need time to devise a more idiot proof way to implement their money Sucking plan.

So…. Emergency averted, at least for the near future.

I’ve posted up several articles over the past few years about how the friends and family option was offered as an option to those who actually have friends and family they can trust while making transactions. They never meant it so people could decide ‘everybody’ was either a friend or family member, to skirt around paying fees for goods and services.

I have mentioned on a few occasions that PayPal ‘is’ a for profit money moving business. They are not a non profit. They don’t work for Mother Teresa. They don’t have their headquarters in the North Pole, in Santa’s’ we play for Free Complex.

Making transactions using friends and family, when you aren’t really dealing with friends or family ha no well grounded justification.

Some people say, ‘Well, I think they make enough money off everybody… or make enough off me or they wouldn’t offer that option if they were afraid you would use it, etc…. All Weak statements.

……Go to McDonalds every day to eat. Monday through Saturday… On Sunday, tell the Manager that you think they have med enough money off you during the week. Tell the Manager you should be considered ‘a friend or family member’ and you want to eat for Free. < Get back to me on how that works?

….Just about every day, I check out the forum to see who is sell what and who is looking for what and whatever else there is to see. By now, most people that frequent this forum know that if a deal goes bad and you used F&F, you are sucking eggs because that option offers no PayPal support with that option.

I understand that All yo-yo sales transactions aren’t several hundred dollar Titanium yo-yos. But the PayPal fees for insured transactions are/can be dirt cheap considering some amounts. $3 on a hundred and at least you can file for a refund if your deal goes Sour.

With as many times as this Horse has been slapped around, every day I check the board, I see sellers clearly stating F&F ‘only’. And some of the sellers have only been forum members for a few months with no real transaction history.

Why don’t the sellers just factor the goods and services fees into their selling price?

Why do the sellers feel justified in suggesting their potential buyers make deals with no insurance of completion?

What compels a seller to feel comfortable with using the convenience of PayPal, yet not willing to ‘PAY’ their fees for using their Services?

I have given this subject considerable thought. I can see no logical or reasonable justification in taking the position of, ‘I will use PayPal, but I will deliberately disregard the PayPal Conditions of Use.

Bottom line is simple> You make a transaction using PayPal, if you are dealing with friends and family, then by all means use the friends and family option.

If you are making a transaction using PayPal and you are not friends or family, then use goods and services.

No rocket science here. A simple and basic concept. Work within the rules.

PS…. Saturday today. Most excellent. Just one day left before I talk to the Manager at McDonalds for my free meal. Uh…. I’m friends and family, right?

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Im pretty sure this has been answered before many times doc…

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I’ve been visiting this forum for about 15 years thereabouts, I am pretty much aware of what’s been asked and what’s been answered.

The simple reason I am bringing it up “again” is obviously because some people still don’t get it.

If they did, sellers wouldn’t straight state in their posts, ‘F&F’ only.

This subject is no different that a Math question. It’s easy to say that the question has been answered before.

But there is only one ‘correct answer’ to a Math problem.

So far, the only answers people have used to justify the F&F option have been the wrong answers.

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People used to share netflix passwords when they werent in the same household. Were you going around convincing people not to do so before the crackdown?

I’ll stop using paypal f&f when paypal makes it impossible to do so without having to prove that you are best friends.
How do you go about defining a friend doc? Could you say that a person I freely give money to with no guarantee that in return they would give me something is a person I trust and can be seen as my friend?
To me the conditions of use are simple. Use f&f if you dont need any protections. Use g&s if you do. The fee in g&s is for the protections.

Now that I have said my piece about the money thing I must also say. Its not a money thing at all. Not for me atleast. The sudden influx of people wanting to use f&f after the tax form was announced should indicate that it was not about the money. Its about the form.

Since this january I have sold over 30 yoyos easily surpassing the original 600$ limit. To prove that I sold all of that for a loss Id have to spend a lot more time filling out tax stuff that I dont want to be doing.

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Upmanyu…. I’ve been watching for your response.

I’m counting on it to be a solid, valid, reasonable and logical explanation addressing my concerns.

And not just an unrealistic, unsubstantiated, unsupported suggestion, justifying the deliberate misuse of the Friends and family option.

You wouldn’t do that, would you?

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I do see some of your points though doc. F&F requires trust. Dealing with someone who has no reputation on these forums is a horrendous idea.

Personally I have only dealt with friends. People who trust me because Ive been here a while and people who I trust because they have been here as well. All friends to me.

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I have no hesitation is admitting my disdain for the IRS nickeling and diming us to Death.

I don’t care one bit for dealing with Tax paperwork(forms).

The whole tax game is nothing but a Racket.

… Here is one unrelated example just to show what a crock the whole tax game is.

Let’s just say, that 20 of us on this forum are also in a local car club. I have a 55 Chevy that everybody loves, including me, lol. It one of you guys would love to buy it. So I sell it to you. You go down to the DMV and deal with the paperwork. They ask you how much you paid for the car? You tell them honestly and they calculate a Use tax…. Let’s just say $200.

At the next club meeting, 2 weeks later, you sell the car to another club member without losing a penny. He goes to the DMV and does the same paperwork and pays the $200 Use tax.

Over the next few months, all 20 members sell the car back and forth, until it’s mine again, lol.
….Down to the DMV I go and there goes another $200 on Use tax.

The DMV just logs in the transaction info in less than 5 minutes…… and over the last few months they’ve made about $4000 on this old Chevy.

Tax laws work in two primary ways. 1. To abuse us and 2. They allow the Gov. agencies to justify abusing us.

If the IRS owes you money you can wait a year to get it. If you owe the IRS money, they can garnish your pay, put a lien on your property …lol and they won’t wait long before they start trying to ruin your life.

So, I can fully understand not wanting to be subject to dealing with more tax forms.

Upmanyu, you have also been around the forum for many years. I understand and agree with your view on this.

I am less concerned with PayPal getting richer, but more concerned with ‘some sellers’ with little seller feedback, to only offer F&F as part of ‘the deal’. F&F offers no support on sour deals.

My oratory on this subject is not 100 percent to justify PayPal raking in the presidents. I am looking at this subject from more than a few different angles.

But I didn’t bring this up to cause trouble, but simply to give people something to consider when making ‘deals’.

I always appreciate your input.

I don’t post up to see if people can ‘Top this’.

I post up to see what others have to say.

Considering all of our views, is a much better way to elicit constructive solutions….

My theory anyways.

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I completely agree on the new folks coming in and asking for f&f being a huge red flag that we need to keep an eye out for. Recently a few folks over on fb got scammed because of a new person coming in and exploiting the community.

Forget f&f, a new user joined a pay it forward thread and just kept the yoyo.

This whole community largely runs on trust. As much as I like it this way and tend to implicitly trust folks here we should be doing our due diligence.

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Anyone who comes on here as a new comer with no transaction history, no or limited feedback and no trust or good faith built up, have no business putting f&f only on the listings. I wouldn’t do that as a new comer and hopefully most people on here know when to spot that as opposed to a long time member of the community.

Asking for f&f only with no feedback as a new comer is just ridiculous.

But there are a great number of longtime trusted members who do prefer f&f sometimes. Myself included.

For 95%of my listing in the past I have always put that either method is fine. Cuz it makes no difference to me, usually. That was until recently.

First off, I hate selling my yo-yos. I never buy a yoyo with the thought that it will be sold down the line possibly. I never think to myself if this yoyo sucks I can always sell it. Never.

Anytime I put yo-yos up for sale it’s only because I absolutely have to for whatever financial situation life is currently throwing at me. Sometimes they’re emergency situations, sometimes not so much.

I was and still am dealing with one of those urgent situations at the moment. Where I need cash and I need it fast. In order to help I listed my favorite pocket yo-yo ever that was untouchable, my titanium executive which I would’ve never dreamed of selling, but the best is so slow right now and that’s what it took. So I listed it cuz I needed the money fast. But just like always I accepted g&s for it like I usually do if that’s how someone wants to pay. Usually don’t have any issues but for whatever reason, probably because it was pricier than normal, PayPal decided to place a hold on that money, and not only that but when there’s a hold placed and then ALL INCOMING FUNDS also get placed on hold until it’s released. So that one transaction that was meant to help me out in an urgent need ended up being completely useless to me and wasn’t able to help the way I needed it to.

Because of that reason, I did update my current bst post that I would prefer f&f for the current listing, cuz I still have this ongoing financial obligation and my mothers medical care is at stake so I can’t risk any funds getting held up.

So that’s one potential reason why someone(myself) would put f&f only.

I cannot speak for anyone else. But there are good reasons and I think I’ve been a part of this community long enough and have built up multiple years of positive feedback without a single bad review and would hope most on here would consider me a friend.

But for what it’s worth, once this situation is behind me then I’m certain will go back to accepting g&s per usual. And think it’s worth saying that I wouldn’t ask for f&f if I didn’t have too.

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I personally choose to use G&S simply as additional insurance for lost packages. Getting your money back from PayPal seems much easier than getting it back from USPS…

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I’ve been selling a fair amount recently and never ask people for F&F unless we know each other. Some people did send payment F&F, their choice.

I only ship tracked, recorded and insured. If the worst happens then I refund my buyer the full amount and claim my loss from the post office.

I’ve been mugged off by a well-known member of the community once upon a time. Fortunately consumer credit law in my country supersedes that of Paypals and I got a full refund from my credit card provider. But it was a ball ache. I helped another member here do the same a couple of years back .

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You are all my friends! For future reference

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for sellers: keep it simple… build the paypal fees into the price of the throw. You want 50? sell it for 55. You want 100? sell it for 105. if you want to do the same with shipping, add in shipping to the overall price (buyers will thank you, i promise). you want 50? sell it for 60 shipped. you want 100? sell it for 110 shipped. that easy.

for buyers: if the seller is insisting on f&f, red flag - ask around, does this person have a reputation? have they done deals before? is it gentry stein??? (if so, demand an autograph). ask to do g&s anyways and throw in an “I’ll cover the fees”, then cover the fees. if you truly can’t afford the extra 3.3% for fees to protect yourself using G&S, you probably shouldn’t be buying the yoyo in the first place.

just my $0.02

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simple, none of these transactions are mandatory. if someone doesn’t want to deal with g&s and that doesn’t sit well with you, don’t purchase it. seems straightforward. similar to why you can’t price shame bst listings. it’s an easily avoidable situation if you arent on board

i mean, for me this is the heart of the argument. as there is no objective measure of what constitutes a “friend”, you can’t objectively say who is entitled to use f&f. I’ll decide who my “friends” are and who i trust

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Cash app is where it’s at :+1:

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G&S is an optional service sold by PayPal to encourage transactions on their platform by reducing perceived risk.

As far as taxes, you owe what you owe according to the law. There are legal exceptions for actual payments to friends and family, but whether you use PayPal F&F vs. G&S (vs. other payment types) is irrelevant to your tax responsibilities.

If you don’t care about PayPal’s G&S features, you are free to skip the extra cost and use F&F for everything, as long as you report spending and income as required.

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Would a seller know the shipping cost? It’s a big world out there, isn’t it.

EDIT - Remember that Paypal operates in numerous other geographies, not just the USA.

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I don’t get F&F only posts . I get the desire to potentially reduce tax burden but if yall don’t know each other or trust each other implicitly the buyer should be good to pay G&S fees on their own

Also buyers should use a credit card or other protected method when buying things online regardless

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I fully agree with your original sentiment. As a buyer, I’ve often felt pressured into making Friends & Family payments, and I’ve reached the point where I refuse to buy from sellers who insist on F&F only. I encourage others not to feel compelled to comply with these demands. If a seller can’t cover the minimal fee associated with a sale, I’d prefer not to do business with them at all.

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I really appreciate everyone that stepped up in this thread to give their view on the friends and family situation.

Remember, this isn’t about right or wrong. We’re not arguing about the Bible. I’m trying to say I know better than you.

My primary objective was to bring this up once again so we could get some updated perspectives from users all over the country and maybe beyond.

Realize, that we’re as close to next-door sharing this forum, but we’re actually hundreds or possibly thousands of miles apart. Enthusiasm for one facet or more of what we call yo-yos is something we share. But that being said, our stations in life, our income levels, our degree of education, Our willingness of or willingness to abide by the PayPal rules Can be as different as they are in similarity.

We are all gifted with the ability to think for ourselves. And concerns like friends and family options are not necessarily supposed to bring us together and at the same time should not pull us apart because we’re not all in the same page.

I just feel that some healthy discussion on the matter will allow all of us to get a better idea on what page everybody else is on.

Regardless of whether we think others have constructive ideas or destructive ideas or narrow minded ideas or broad minded ideas, having diverse viewpoints converging gives us all the better database to draw from in forming our future thoughts or movements or decisions when and if we use PayPal

Thanks to everybody that is jumped into this subject to give their honest opinion because no answers wrong even if every answer is different

Much appreciated from old Mo. Like it or not I get people talking and there’s nothing wrong with putting the ball on the ground and kicking it around…

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