What about the part where the sixth ancestor says that is still a disease of the mind so he leaves, comes back and then says, “It’s not that there is no realization, but that it doesn’t defile me.” The sixth ancestor accepts that answer.
What does that mean exactly?
Philosophy is confusing. That’s why philosophical arguments have to be broken down into almost mathematical formula. The simplest one I can think of is “I think therefore I am.”
Absence of evidence is not evidence or absence. :-\
Nice. Don’t really have anything to add at the moment. Just really liked that.
By not claiming or clinging… it can’t defile you. 
Reminds me of the ‘tail’. 
CASE 38. GOSO’S BUFFALO
Goso asked, “A water buffalo goes out of his “enclosure.” The head, the horns, and the four legs go through, but why doesn’t the tail, too?”
Mumon’s Comments:
If you can open your one eye (to the question) and say an awakening word, you will be able to repay the Four Obligations and help the Three Bhava being saved. If you still have not gotten it, take a close look on the tail and awake yourself.
If the buffalo goes through, he will fall into the abyss,
If he retreats into the enclosure, he will be butchered.
This little bit of a tail,
that is a strange thing indeed!
Still been trying to wrap my head around this. So…
When we cling to what we think is “reality” it “defiles” our true identity. Or maybe identity is the wrong word. It just defiles the Any possible truth we may (if any) be able to perceive. When we realize we actually know nothing, that not even our senses can be truly trusted - that is when this perceived existence no longer “defiles” us.
Correct?
What you’ve noticed is how impossibly hard it is to talk about ‘reality’ and experiences. ;D To put into words those things that can’t be put into words. But I’ll try and hope I just don’t make it more confusing. 
What defiles is an idea of ‘self’ or an ‘I’. Have you ever heard the quote “It is wisdom that is seeking wisdom.” The same can be said of ‘freedom’ or ‘enlightenment’. It seeks itself. So to think ‘you’ (the self or I) are what creates or brought about enlightenment is a self serving notion which defiles. The same defilement happens if we actually experience enlightenment and try to cling to it. To cling to it is to grasp and try to ‘own’ the experience through a ‘self’. Since reality is always in flux you are only trying to own what has passed but also negating the possibility of endless enlightenment moment to moment, born fresh and new from reality itself, not a personal ‘self’.
That is very cool. Thats all for now, just very cool.
Turns out Dogen said it better and much more succinct!
“To carry your self forward and illuminate the myriad things is delusion.
That the myriad things come forth and illuminate themselves is awakening or enlightenment.”
“To give up your self without regret is the greatest charity. Using the mind to look for reality is delusion. Not using the mind to look for reality is awakening.”
Questioner: It is true that society is based on acquisitiveness and ambition; but if we had no ambition would we not decay?
Krishnamurti: This is really a very important question, and it needs great attention.
Do you know what attention is? Let us find out. In a classroom, when you stare out of the window or pull somebody’s hair, the teacher tells you to pay attention. Which means what? That you are not interested in what you are studying and so the teacher compels you to pay attention – which is not attention at all. Attention comes when you are deeply interested in something, for then you love to find out all about it; then your whole mind, your whole being is there. Similarly, the moment you see that this question – if we had no ambition, would we not decay? – is really very important, you are interested and want to find out the truth of the matter.
Now, is not the ambitious man destroying himself? That is the first thing to find out, not to ask whether ambition is right or wrong. Look around you, observe all the people who are ambitious. What happens when you are ambitious? You are thinking about yourself, are you not? You are cruel, you push other people aside because you are trying to fulfill your ambition, trying to become a big man, thereby creating in society the conflict between those who are falling behind. There is a constant battle between you and the others who are also after what you want; and is this conflict productive of creative living? Do you understand, or is this too difficult?
Are you ambitious when you love to do something for its own sake? When you are doing something with your whole being, not because you want to get somewhere , or have more profit, or greater results, but simply because you love to do it – in that there is no ambition , is there? In that there is no competition; you are not struggling with anyone for first place. And should not education help you to find out what you really love to do so that from the beginning to the end of your life you are working at something which you feel is worth while and which for you has deep significance? Otherwise, for the rest of your days, you will be miserable. Not knowing what you really want to do, your mind falls into a routine in which there is only boredom, decay and death. That is why it is very important to find out while you are young what it is you really love to do; and this is the only way to create a new society.
That was great BHN. I feel a bit depressed that people in general don’t think like that. We all are “guilty” of of this at some time. Some, all the time and more than others.
Brain washed I suppose.
Somebody once said this to me.
(He claps) He says “When I clap, where are you?”
The meaning is hard to grasp in words but you will understand better when somebody asks you that.
You have actually read and understood this; right?
I mean a close reading of all of this is just contradictory isn’t it? If I can’t use my mind to understand; then why is the author bothering to write their thoughts down for me to read?
No, this is like a horoscope, or a Bob Dylan song. You can read into it anything you like; all of it ultimately unsatisfying both spiritually and intellectually. Feeble minds may be taken in by the complex language and contradictory “logic”; but this just sounds like someone who does not understand physics trying to sound smart.
Of course I can use my mind to understand the universe around me. Planes fly through the air because someone actually used their mind to understand reality. Planes do not fly due to the “awakening” found when not using the mind.
What if we live in a computer simulation?
Watch SAO.
Howdy Geez! How ya been?
Yes I’ve read it and reckon I understand it, to a degree, since I posted it to go along with my own response.
It’s actually not contradictory when looked at from the perspective of no ego. Dogen doesn’t say you can’t use the mind to ‘understand’, that’s your wording, he says, you can’t ‘look’ for reality through the mind. All he’s saying is that the mind cannot create reality. He says it this way because the mind actually does taint or alter reality for most people. Their minds are always leaning in one way or another therefore they are not seeing reality, they are seeing what they want to see. Suzuki called it the monkey mind.
What your talking about physics and airplanes are fine, that’s the difference between Relative reality compared to Absolute reality. That’s a given actually but also why a lot of what’s written by such folk may sound complex or confusing or trying to be extra super duper smart as they’re just trying to tell people logic and smarts won’t help you ‘experience’ absolute truth/reality. It has to be experienced, it can’t be a thought process to reach it as thought has to cease so the mind can be quiet. So to experience reality as it is, with no self, is all he’s talking about being awakening. It’s already there (reality), you don’t have to think about it or be smart for it all to still exist.
Einstein talked about the self in another way when he said:
“A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive. - Albert Einstein, 1954”
Just clap and listen when you truly listen then you have found reality. That is my experience.
