Kickback: Myth or Reality

[Gambit]

Apologies for the clickbait title, but it sounds more exciting than just "kickback’.

Now, I’ve heard the word kickback a lot recently. I’m not actually denying that it exists, and understand, in principle, what it is. I can imagine that on front-throws it could be a bit annoying.

However, it’s something that I’ve really just never noticed or had a problem with myself, so I struggle to see it as the huge issue that some people seem to find it.

I came across this post linking rim-weight with kickback:

The thing about kickback posted above (thanks, KiLbUcK!) is Jeff’s vision come to fruition. While the majority of yoyos to come out lately are rim-weighted for stability and long spin time, the price you pay is kickback. The Evora avoids that and consequently feels amazing on the throw.

Here’s the thing about spin time, though: rim-weighted yoyos are only going to have momentum for long spins on a hard throw (producing the aforementioned kickback).

… and it made me think. I can think of two yoyos off the top of my head that feel really nice to breakaway with, where you can feel the string unwind the whole way and get that strong spin. Those are the OnedropXToxic T1 and the Terrarian. They feel nice to throw, no doubt about it, and the thing they have in common is not very much rim weight.

So, I can understand that there may be a change in feel between various yoyos on the throw, however I’ve never noticed it to the point where it has actually bothered me. I admit that the T1 and Terrarian feel nice to throw, but it doesn’t make me feel that other yoyos are necessarily bad… just different.

I read quotes like this however:

I hate the way the Draupnir feels on the throw. Like… HATE it. Way, way WAY too much kickback for me to enjoy.

As the title says my skywalker has kickback. It also slips on binds which is frustrating. It is the D bearing version. Even if I silicone it so that the silicone sits flush with the edge of the recess it still has kickback. I am using a difeyo Koncave and kitty fat.

Space cowboys seem very heavy to me-- this can be good if you like heavy throws, but if you don’t… Space cowboys also have kickback. Its not extreme, but it’s definitely there. The space cowboy is also more expensive. I haven’t played a nightmare, but I think that the kickback has been fixed.

beefcaking a yoyo can cause a phenomenon known as kickback. kickback is not good.

I felt the superstar is a weak throw as far as comfort goes, the V shape was awkward on catches and the 5mm gap is simply way too big creating a bit of kickback. I honestly didn’t like mine.

Dreadnaught is a very good yoyo, but the kickback was too much.

In my experience, the a-bearing DV888s feel like a rock on the string and have major kickback and snag a lot. It does spin forever, though.

It makes a lot of sense to progress towards larger bearings if we’re making larger yo-yos. If you’ve ever thrown a yo-yo with kickback, you know it’s annoying as heck.

… and to some people it seems that kickback is this big thing that really gets to them. I find it interesting that something that can really annoy some players can go by completely un-noticed by others. Maybe it’s like vibe. (Inb4 ‘What’s vibe?’)

So anyways, my questions are this:

1. Am I the only one who never even notices kickback?
2. To those who do hate kickback, is it really that noticeable on a breakaway?
3. What’s so bad about kickback when throwing a breakaway?

I figured it’d make for an interesting dicussion.

(Please note I’m only talking about kickback with regards to 1A yoyos. Any information regarding 2A or 4A will be completely lost on me.)

[GrandMaster]

I really never notice the kickback of any of my throws. I play with many throws with a variety of supposed “kickback”, but never notice this myself. I’m probably used to the kickback on bi metals, which are the type of yoyo’s that I play often; compared to other mono metals.

Kickback in yoyo’s feels natural to me when playing, it kind of adds a certain felling when throwing and returning. This doesn’t bother me at all.

Every person has their own throwing experience, so everyone’s interpretation of the way a yoyo plays can be similar; but not the same. That’s what I think anyways

[ThinkH2o]

all I can say is that it is definitely not a myth. Its harsh reality for some throws.

[rizki_yoist]

I think you’re kinda confused. Every yoyo has kickback, the difference is some people prefer more and some less. So the better question is, “Do you notice the different amount of kickback on different yoyos, and at what point does it bother you”.
Kickback is a lot more noticeable in 2a yoyos, where high kickback will feel really heavy and loops upward, and low kickback will feel feathery as if the rim has too little weight. You can test this with adjustable gap loopers.
I personally don’t like too much kickback, because the yoyo has to accelerate more for less unwinding of the string. It’s like, setting a bike in the high/heavy gears, you pedal less for more distance, but it feels heavier. Basically the same for yoyos, the throw will feel heavier but it can potentially translate to longer spin time.
How does it affect play? because it’s annoying to have to adjust; either throw harder, or adjust to throw further/release the yoyo earlier, and it feels clunky on the initial throw. I’m a particularly fast player, and the initial throw is important to go “fast from the start”. If I were to use a yoyo with high kickback, let’s say Dreadnought, I have to either, throw slower to compromise the amount of kickback (so it doesn’t feel too strong), or throw as fast but with more energy and adjust the throwing direction further away.

If you were to hold two yoyos in each hands with different kickback, the same string, same length, and just letting it fall down, the one with higher kickback will unroll slower. This is basically what it feels like, it unrolls too slow and heavy, just like pedaling bikes with high gear. However, yoyos with too little kickback doesn’t feel good too.

Sometimes, when I’ve been playing with yoyos with a lot of kickback for some time, then switch to the less kickback ones, sometimes I initially feel that the less kickback ones has too little kickback, and vice versa, just like putting your hands in warm water makes it feels like the cold water feel somehow colder.

All that aside, the amount of kickback is nothing more than a matter of preference.

[Morgoroth]

So can we get a definition of kickback?
Is it just on the throw?

It sounds like it’s the resistance of the yoyo to unwind when thrown.
Is that right?

[rizki_yoist]

@Morgoroth

So can we get a definition of kickback?
Is it just on the throw?

It sounds like it’s the resistance of the yoyo to unwind when thrown.
Is that right?

It is what I think too.

[Morgoroth]

I’ve only been throwing for 6 months or so, but I’ve never had a problem with this.
It makes sense in theory, but it seems like a string change would mitigate a lot of the issue.
Maybe fatter strings for more rim weighted throws.

[GregP]

To experience the kickback, simply get a Draupnir in your hands. Give it your normal breakaway going for a trapeze. You don’t have to be “ripping” it, but give it a decent throw, not just a gentle one. Watch (and more importantly, FEEL) that as instead of going off to the side-ish before swinging around naturally and intuitively for the trapeze, it makes a straight diagonal line from your hand across your body to your NTH side, making the trapeze feel and look incredibly awkward.

If the Draupnir is your jam, you will find ways around it. If you direct the majority of your energy more to the right (or even right and up) than usual, you can find a nicer arc. But I ain’t adjusting my throw for one yoyo. (well, or any other yoyo with that incredible amount of kickback)

So it’s not about front throws per se, though you’re at risk of cracking your shins more on the front throw. For me it’s mainly the really annoying breakaway.

Trust me, the feel isn’t negligible. You will have noticed it if you have played a yoyo with heavy kickback. It’s a totally different feeling. Well, unless ALL your yoyos have heavy kickback in which case that’s your normal.

[Morgoroth]

That makes sense.
I’ve got a too hot, and a Benchmark O shape so probably they don’t have a lot of kickback and I don’t notice it.

Or they both have a lot, and I don’t…

Well they must have about the same.

[GregP]

The TooHOT gives me no problems. And it’s considered a rim-weighted yoyo. Neither do the Pulsefire, Rave, Valor, or virtually the rest of my collection. Which is why I can see why some people may not have experienced it.

But that Draupnir, though… or when you have a smaller bearing. The A-bearing Genesis I owned was the only other yoyo to come close to the Draupnir for kickback.

[YoYoExpertGarrett]

I throw every yo-yo that we sell enough to get a feel for it and I never knew “kickback” was a thing until reading people posting about it online.

Different yo-yo shapes/designs will play/perform differently and you will naturally throw them a little differently because of how they play/perform. That’s how I look at it. Maybe i’m noticing kickback and just not giving it a name, but i’ve never seen the described kickback as an issue.

I don’t like all the yo-yo/car comparisons I always see, but i’m throwing one out there for this. When you get in a new car you don’t just step on the gas the same way you did in your old car. You test it out, get a feel for it, then give it some gas. That’s how I try a new yo-yo - Give it a few throws, get a feel for it, then see what it can do!

Just taking a look at my desk right now I see a Nightmare, Puffin 2, Vertex, Yeti, and a Daydream. If I wanted to play each of them back to back I would notice obvious differences in play and performance but kickback wouldn’t cross my mind once.

[GregP]

It’s not a subtle thing. I mean, when I throw the Draupnir, it literally, not just perceptually, has a completely different trajectory on the throw. And it’s not a good thing. You have to fight against it. I can easily imagine people saying “It’s the necessary evil and I can live with it” but not “I don’t notice it”. It would be unpossible to not notice.

Those who know me should know that I’m NOT a person to get caught up in treating perception as reality. Quite the opposite. This isn’t a subtle perception in which you’re attributing a sensation to something (like so-called “float”) but a real and obvious thing with direct impact on the physical world. I’m sure a physicist could demonstrate why there are remarkably different trajectories. I am not that physicist.

Like I said, none of my current collection has kickback. I cannot bring myself to buy a Draupnir and I gave away that Genesis long ago. But just because it’s only significant in a small portion of yoyos doesn’t mean it’s not significant when it’s there. of the dozens of yoyos I’ve owned, only the SB Genesis has been nearly unmanageable in the kickback (I have not owned the Draupnir).

[wishiwasayoyoexpert]

After some substantial testing on my part (throwing two yoyos and seeing if I feel what people are describing), I can say this myth is busted. I’ve never felt it before, therefore it doesn’t exist!

[jhb8426 (Resident Curmudgeon)]

Gambit, please define kickback as you are using the term.

The kickback I am familiar with would be the case with an overly wide gap:

beefcaking a yoyo can cause a phenomenon known as kickback. kickback is not good.

For me It’s a tendency some yoyos have that when you throw, say a sleeper, instead of stopping straight down from your throw hand, it will tend to swing behind you to some degree. Some beefcaked yoyos exhibit this, as well as others with large gaps. Heavier/more rim-weighted yo-yos are also prone to this. Smaller bearings or thinner fixed axles increase the effect. This is the common definition from years past. It doesn’t sound like what people are now referring to.

The HSPIN G&E 4 was a good example of this, having a wide gap and being heavier. Here’s a Save Deth vid that shows it to some extent.

Save Deth G&E4 on Vimeo

The G&E 4 came with a 5 mm wide bearing. The Save Deth version had a 4 mm bearing.

[GregP]

Definitely what jhb is talking about is exactly what I’m talking about. And it applies to breakaways, too, causing a very awkward trapeze unless you’re familiar with (and comfortable with) dealing with it.

Nobody’s saying it completely ruins a yoyo. The Draupnir is proof that you can create a legendary yoyo even if it has kickback. But there are two things:

1. There’s no “Myth or Reality” discussion, period. It’s reality. It’s physics. It’s easily demonstrable
2. Some of us do not care to get used to it and have an aversion or even a loathing of significant kickback.

But make no mistake… when you play a yoyo with significant kickback, you WILL notice the difference on your throw. If you haven’t noticed it, you haven’t played a yoyo with significant kickback.

[jhb8426 (Resident Curmudgeon)]

@GregP

Definitely what jhb is talking about is exactly what I’m talking about.

Thanks. The reason I brought it up is that the last time there was a discussion of this, it was a completely different concept they were discussing.

[FiveIronBrian]

@GregP

If you haven’t noticed it, you haven’t played a yoyo with significant kickback.

Or you don’t do enough frontstyle tricks like you used to ;D

[YoYoExpertGarrett]

Ok, after watching that video I can definitely understand what kickback is, but I still don’t think i’ll ever consider it an issue. I just threw a couple different yo-yos and find that some have a little more kickback, but it’s easy to compensate for. I’m not throwing or releasing every yo-yo the exact same way, I adjust depending on the yo-yo.

[jhb8426 (Resident Curmudgeon)]

Yes, adjusting your throw can compensate for it. But you need to be aware of it.

[Morgoroth]

So would changing the string help?