I have been having an argument today with an excellent yoyo designer who will remain nameless (Mark from MK1 yoyos).
I believe that longer axles have a noticeable affect on a yoyos play characterististics. I believe is does add something to the maneuverability and feel of a yoyo. Mark thinks that all it adds is weight and doesn’t really do anything else.
I’m not trying to settle the argument, its just a friendly disagreement, but does anyone else here have any thoughts on this?
Hey, I could well be wrong. Mark is the superior designer.
Edit, Mark also suggested that the yoyo is mure durable with a longer axle.
side effects are often used specifically to adjust center-weight of a yoyo with the intention of altering play characteristics. while the axle itself is a much smaller amount of weight than side effects, they are still significantly more dense than the aluminum they’re often screwing into. so, i would imagine a longer axle would lend itself to higher percentages of center weight than the same yoyo designed for the same mass with a shorter axle. seems like they would affect play characteristics, but how big of an effect? I’d guess small
the maneuverability you’re feeling might be a placebo, or maybe it’s a consequence of more center weight? i’m not a designer, but those are my thoughts
Seems possible that longer axles better maintain alignment over time to ward off vibe. Or maybe even enable designs that are more prone to vibe in the first place.
The longer axle engages more surface area inside of each half giving greater stability. Similar to the difference in swinging a bat one handed vs two handed. Even if it could only be measured on a microscopic level, the halves can flex in motion more on a shorter axle where a longer one can keep this controlled better. Partly why a super short axle throw will strip even if you don’t take it apart a lot. This adds to how solid the yo-yo feels.
My personal opinion is you know what you’re getting when you buy a yo-yo with a longer or shorter axle. With a longer axle, you might be trading off some performance for a yo-yo that’s going to be potentially more durable and less likely to strip. With a shorter axle, you might be gaining some extra performance for a yoyo that isn’t meant to be unscrewed.
I rather have yo-yos be the former, as I, and many others, will never be good enough that the little extra center weight will matter for performance.
I also think it’s just silly to design a yo-yo held together by 2-3 threads. No matter how careful you are, that will strip eventually.
I’m echoing this sentiment. I think the issue is more in tight bearing fits causing people to be less aware of when they’re starting to cross thread their yoyo, and proceeding to place the blame on the short axles.
I really question the validity of how necessary longer axles for durability are when so many of the best 3A and 5A players in the world use yoyos with 7-8mm axles. The players placing more stress on their yoyos than almost any other players through normal play don’t have durability/stripping issues.
kinda weird to say you’re not gonna call out mark, and then call out mark lol.
Anyway.
Like everything else in yoyo desgin, it’s about trade offs. Everything is a trade off. Adding rim weight means you get more performance but it’s also harder to make and requires more effort to reach the same RPM. Adding longer axles means you get more durability which is essential for some styles (3a especially) but decreases MOI. Maybe it’s minor, you’ll notice it more on lighter yoyos. Maybe you’ll prefer the play feel. It’s preference beyond the durability reqs for 3a (and probably 5a when you’re still new and dropping the yoyo often)
If you want a 10mm axle with a flat hub, you’re gonna have a lot more center weight than if you used an 8mm axle. You can usually design that center weight back in if you want, but depending on the design, it might be essential (using lower grade aluminium to keep costs down for example). The point is, it’s not just the axle you have to account for, it’s the material that houses the axle too. Thin, short nipples can remove more center weight than you might think. The G2 spikes are a good way to keep center weight down while allowing for a longer than 8mm axle. Even for an 8mm axle, you can remove center weight with a nipple. The OP dome hub removes center weight over a flat hub too.
I’m not trying to say removing center weight is always desirable, some people love that feeling and don’t mind the performance hit (some people prefer playing with low performance yoyos and that’s cool too). I’m just saying that’s the trade off. Those are the things I think about when designing a yoyo.
Newer 3a players tend towards having the yoyos collide a lot more, earlier on in the trick. When you get 2 yoyos slamming into each other, spinning at high RPM in the opposite direction, the torque can strip the yoyos. I’ve seen it happen. I’ve had it happen to me. So a longer axle is essential for a lot of 3a players. Not in all situations, but I’d definitely recommend it to newer players starting out. The stripping potential is less important for 5a as the ground isn’t spinning the the opposite direction so instant stripping is less likely.
A longer will definitely increase the durability of a yoyo from impacts. Having more surface area contacting means there will be less play between the 2 threaded parts. Play feel is entirely subjective though. People move the yoyo differently so experience those characteristics differently. Some people (like myself) will be bullying the yoyo to get it to move the entire time it’s in motion. Others will use smaller inputs and let the yoyo and gravity do more of the work. I don’t think there’s a wrong way to do it, but I think it means people trend towards different types of yoyo and that’s ok.
Yea, it goes down. The amount depends on more than just the axle. If you want to keep the 2 yoyos the same weight, you have to take weight away from other parts of the yoyo that add MOI. That will decrease the MOI more than if you just added a longer axle and a nipple with the weight going up with it. Usually I have a bunch of goals for the spec of a yoyo when I’m desiging it though, so that’s why I worded it the way I did.
I agree on this one too. All if my current 5A throws, which is more than 70% of my collection, they basically all have tiny axles and i have put them all through absolute hell. I’m also very cautious when screwing them back together. I’ve never stripped or damaged an axle in my entire life. That said, i like long axles because it’s old school and generally much easier to deal with. I also don’t care much about performance. I love playing “bad” yoyos.
I can see that, but as a 4a player, even though everyone plays m4 axles, I like to play over tile, and I’ve snapped multiple axles. This is pretty much the only reason the Flight is my favorite yoyo.