The physics of floaty?

[kyo]

@daniel0731ex

@beezy

Hmmm… maybe the shape of the yoyo is worth considering here, with respect to aerodynamics. My thought here is that the yoyo is slicing through enough air when you consider the RPMs and not just the distance traveled. What is the average RPM of a yoyo on a throw, anyways?

It can go as high as 60000 rpm.
In contrast, the maximum speed of a YYJ Large bearing is 50000 rpm.\

shape

It contributes to the perceived density of the yoyo (see my post).

aerodynamics

No.

horizontal component

It is fully dictated by the player’s action. Assuming no action from the player, it is uniform motion.

You seem to have added an extra 0 to your RPM estimates. There is no yo-yo, ever, that has spun at 50,000 RPM. The ‘average’ on a -modern- yoyo is more in the 3,000-6,000 range depending on how hard you throw… most are somewhere in the middle, many are lower… a few throw crazy hard. Higher rim weight = lower RPM, and since most modern yoyos have crazy rim weight, they spin slow.

The official “record” for RPM is 14,000. However, it is widely believed to be a false reading. The method they used has since been proven (repeatedly) to give ‘double pings’, so the actual spin would have been 7,000… which wouldn’t be much of a record at all really.

The Yomega RPM does an ‘ok’ job at estimating it’s spin… but any player with a good arm can max it out at 9,999… partly because it lacks any substantial rim weight, and partly because it isn’t perfectly accurate and the electronics get a bit wonky on hard throws.

I’m actually very surprised to see this thread and not have a ton to add to it… GregP has done quite a nice job explaining things.

The actual RPM of a yo-yo has a good bit to do with perception… and that number is (given the same throw) dictated by the amount of rim weight essentially.

Oh, and aerodynamics have precisely nothing to do with it… the drag and the like are so low as to not be significant at all.

Kyle

[kevinm]

my no-jive floats when i do a break-away.

[HipposLoveCereal]

@GregP

Oh yay! I’ve been waiting for one of these threads, and have been surprised to have not seen one earlier.

My take is that “floaty” is part physics and part “it’s all in your head”. In terms of physics, I think people underestimate the… er… zippiness at which a yoyo goes from hand to to end of the string (“unrolling?”). This is a function of the bearing, string, response, walls, and diameter of the yoyo, all contributing to whether a yoyo gets to the end of the string with a “thunk” or elegantly reaches the end of the string with a powerful spin and little or no “thunk”.

Since that’s the first sensation at the beginning of any trick, it’s going to inform your feelings. A C3 Token which has a heavy “thunk” at the end of the string, is never going to be called “floaty” even though it might have the same weight as another yoyo.

The H5xChief, on the other hand, spins its way out to the end of the string without a “thunk”, so it just feels elegant and “light for its size”. Well, it’s not any lighter. It felt lighter because it did not accelerate to the end of the string at the same velocity as a rock on a string. It “floated” to the end.

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The second part is stability. Get a yoyo that likes to go off axis and which you have to micro-manage in terms of control, and it’s probably not as likely to be called “floaty”. It might get called “nimble” or “precise” but not “floaty”.

But you get a yoyo with spin dynamics that cause it to stay on-axis, and you can easily predict its motion through the air and the amount of control (or lack thereof) that you will need as it comes into a mount. Hate to break it to some of y’all, but if you hop it up, it’s going to travel the same arc as any other yoyo of the same weight. It’s not floating or getting any more hang time. At all. But because it’s so stable it reduces effort required to manage its trajectory.

Less effort likely results in a “floaty” feeling.

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That’s my take on it. I don’t think that “floaty” is a total load of hooey, though I think that some people crank up the BS when they talk about movement through the air. I think there is some physics behind it. But the physics are NOT the yoyo as it flies through the air. The physics relate to the initial throw and the stability, as far as I can tell. These contribute to an overall feeling of effortlessness and casual ease which trick the brain into seeing the entire experience as one of “floating” the yoyo around your tricks and combos.

This seems to be the most correct in my experience, except for the aero-yo delta I have (had). It has a “thunk” at the end yet still played super floaty.

[daniel0731ex]

@HipposLoveCereal

@GregP

Oh yay! I’ve been waiting for one of these threads, and have been surprised to have not seen one earlier.

My take is that “floaty” is part physics and part “it’s all in your head”. In terms of physics, I think people underestimate the… er… zippiness at which a yoyo goes from hand to to end of the string (“unrolling?”). This is a function of the bearing, string, response, walls, and diameter of the yoyo, all contributing to whether a yoyo gets to the end of the string with a “thunk” or elegantly reaches the end of the string with a powerful spin and little or no “thunk”.

Since that’s the first sensation at the beginning of any trick, it’s going to inform your feelings. A C3 Token which has a heavy “thunk” at the end of the string, is never going to be called “floaty” even though it might have the same weight as another yoyo.

The H5xChief, on the other hand, spins its way out to the end of the string without a “thunk”, so it just feels elegant and “light for its size”. Well, it’s not any lighter. It felt lighter because it did not accelerate to the end of the string at the same velocity as a rock on a string. It “floated” to the end.

---

The second part is stability. Get a yoyo that likes to go off axis and which you have to micro-manage in terms of control, and it’s probably not as likely to be called “floaty”. It might get called “nimble” or “precise” but not “floaty”.

But you get a yoyo with spin dynamics that cause it to stay on-axis, and you can easily predict its motion through the air and the amount of control (or lack thereof) that you will need as it comes into a mount. Hate to break it to some of y’all, but if you hop it up, it’s going to travel the same arc as any other yoyo of the same weight. It’s not floating or getting any more hang time. At all. But because it’s so stable it reduces effort required to manage its trajectory.

Less effort likely results in a “floaty” feeling.

---

That’s my take on it. I don’t think that “floaty” is a total load of hooey, though I think that some people crank up the BS when they talk about movement through the air. I think there is some physics behind it. But the physics are NOT the yoyo as it flies through the air. The physics relate to the initial throw and the stability, as far as I can tell. These contribute to an overall feeling of effortlessness and casual ease which trick the brain into seeing the entire experience as one of “floating” the yoyo around your tricks and combos.

This seems to be the most correct in my experience, except for the aero-yo delta I have (had). It has a “thunk” at the end yet still played super floaty.

As I said, there is two types of floaty: on the string, and at the end of the string.

[YoyoGeezer]

@Shkd70

Is it possible to predict the speed at which a yoyo will play? The cliff is really floaty but it also specs that it should be heavier. I don’t get it. The chief isn’t that floaty but a lot lighter. Is there a diameter to weight ratio that suggests how it will behave?

Help Dirty Birdy! ???

I think this thread has been hijacked with “feelings” and “in your head” perceptions.

The original question is one that I have pondered also. I do not think the question was: what makes one perceive float Answering that question by saying that it is something in someone’s head seems a bit counter-intuitive. We all know what float is. We have all played frisbee. Float occurs when the angular momentum of the rotating object begins to cancel out the linear motion of the object (frisbee) or, in the case of a yoyo; a tethered gyroscope.

I see this at work with my OneDrop Y-Factor and my YYR Dreadnought. The relative dimensions are the same - but something happens when the diameter is increased and the same weight is moved outwards. The now lighter yoyo vs. its large diameter yoyo gets floaty where the Y-Factor is zippy.

My take on this question is that the Z- cross-section of the Cliff makes the mass much more near the rim of the yoyo. This increases the angular momentum as that mass is moved outwards away from the hub. Because of the increased diameter away from the axle - the greater that mass wants to spin rather than swing.

axle < Central Disc mass =< Rim Weight mass = fast
axle < Central Disc mass > Rim Weight mass = floaty

[daniel0731ex]

What you have done there is stating what is the basics of moment of inertia, and throwing nonsensical equations on the wall with vaguely defined terms and not explaining any of them.

“Perception”, in the case of yoyos is not as people says are impossible to analyze. It is quite apparent from basic physics principles to deduce that the perception of “fast” and “floatiness” of yoyos is entirely a result of a deviation between a player’s expectation and the actual physical properties of the yoyo. The real mystery here is how exactly is the player’s expectation influenced by the physical properties of the yoyo. The actual numerical relation can be quite complex to analyze, yes, but we can nail down the factors that influences by breaking down the question.

The first question we must ask ourselves, before going into any physics, is: is there any qualitative aspect of a yoyo that might influence the perception of the quantitative? Well, we have the shape, the finish, and the sound of the yoyo, which relates to comfort and, to a small degree, perception of the weight of the yoyo. Now, do any of these have lasting effects after the user is familiar with the design? The sound might gives the user an illusion of “hollow” or “solid”, and the shape may still contribute by affecting the rate in which the string slides down the catch zone. But from our experiences, these sensations are completely overshadowed by the our concentration on controlling the motion of the yoyo. Of course, some may experience the effect more than the others, but we can generally agree that when we focus our senses to the motion behavior of the yoyo it can be filtered out fairly effectively.

So we have concluded that the feel of the design in the hands of the user has minimum to negligible effect on the p

[The_Machinist]

@daniel0731ex

What you have done there is stating what is the basics of moment of inertia, and throwing nonsensical equations on the wall with vaguely defined terms and not explaining any of them.

“Perception”, in the case of yoyos is not as people says are impossible to analyze. It is quite apparent from basic physics principles to deduce that the perception of “fast” and “floatiness” of yoyos is entirely a result of a deviation between a player’s expectation and the actual physical properties of the yoyo. The real mystery here is how exactly is the player’s expectation influenced by the physical properties of the yoyo. The actual numerical relation can be quite complex to analyze, yes, but we can nail down the factors that influences by breaking down the question.

The first question we must ask ourselves, before going into any physics, is: is there any qualitative aspect of a yoyo that might influence the perception of the quantitative? Well, we have the shape, the finish, and the sound of the yoyo, which relates to comfort and, to a small degree, perception of the weight of the yoyo. Now, do any of these have lasting effects after the user is familiar with the design? The sound might gives the user an illusion of “hollow” or “solid”, and the shape may still contribute by affecting the rate in which the string slides down the catch zone. But from our experiences, these sensations are completely overshadowed by the our concentration on controlling the motion of the yoyo. Of course, some may experience the effect more than the others, but we can generally agree that when we focus our senses to the motion behavior of the yoyo it can be filtered out fairly effectively.

So we have concluded that the feel of the design in the hands of the user has minimum to negligible effect on the p

@daniel0731ex

No need to be a technical Nazi cat here. You get his point.

[saintrobyn]

Dan, you seem to be taking any comments in this thread that do not conform with what you are thinking very personally.

Quite a few of us are following the lead of the original poster and discussing the topic at hand in an unbiased manor. I do not see a reason for some of your perceived hostility when others make a comment.

[YoyoGeezer]

@daniel0731ex

What you have done there is stating what is the basics of moment of inertia, and throwing nonsensical equations on the wall with vaguely defined terms and not explaining any of them.

“Perception”, in the case of yoyos is not as people says are impossible to analyze. It is quite apparent from basic physics principles to deduce that the perception of “fast” and “floatiness” of yoyos is entirely a result of a deviation between a player’s expectation and the actual physical properties of the yoyo. The real mystery here is how exactly is the player’s expectation influenced by the physical properties of the yoyo. The actual numerical relation can be quite complex to analyze, yes, but we can nail down the factors that influences by breaking down the question.

The first question we must ask ourselves, before going into any physics, is: is there any qualitative aspect of a yoyo that might influence the perception of the quantitative? Well, we have the shape, the finish, and the sound of the yoyo, which relates to comfort and, to a small degree, perception of the weight of the yoyo. Now, do any of these have lasting effects after the user is familiar with the design? The sound might gives the user an illusion of “hollow” or “solid”, and the shape may still contribute by affecting the rate in which the string slides down the catch zone. But from our experiences, these sensations are completely overshadowed by the our concentration on controlling the motion of the yoyo. Of course, some may experience the effect more than the others, but we can generally agree that when we focus our senses to the motion behavior of the yoyo it can be filtered out fairly effectively.

So we have concluded that the feel of the design in the hands of the user has minimum to negligible effect on the p

I will be clear. I was trying to be simple and to the point. Citing ANY equations is better than subjective analysis such as you are proposing. Your analysis consists of subjective expectation compounded with another subjective measure that is unrelated and equally unimportant. None of this is science that I can identify; much less physics. Concepts such as moment and rotational momentum are generally accepted as physics. Conclusions about imaginary properties such as perception (p) are … imaginary.

Before you hurl any more insults at me; my B.S. is in Mathematics. I will be happy to discuss any equations or any mathematics that you care to. Shall we start with simple differential equations? Or, go straight to multi-dimensional manifold analysis?

[beezy]

So…

Going back to rim vs. center weight and how that effects floaty on the string, and not perceived heaviness of a yoyo on a throw, because floaty on the string is the most important here, I think…

There seems to be a “sweet spot” for the type (and total amount!) of weight placement that yields floatyness without sacrificing powerful spin: not too much on the rim or too centered or too heavy or too light. And I’ll concede that maybe this float is all about the perception of stability and if a yoyo appears to want to sit on the string, unmoved, or does it appear to be able to be easily popped up into the air. Again, its a balance, because an all-center weighted yoyo would just feel bad and unstable.

[AFairhurst (Alex Fairhurst)]

I just want to say that I’m really glad this thread is happening. I’ve been getting a bit bored with the forums lately and it’s good to see an actual discussion happening. I’ve been wondering what makes a yoyo floaty for ages, too.