See, I’m more appalled by the Spin Top results thing. The judges hate is disappointing but very believable, but this surprises me greatly. I don’t know if everyone else could take it as a joke, but I know that if I did spin tops and had worked hard on a freestyle, the booing would probably anger/upset me a bit. If we’re going to boo one division for presumably “wasting time” (I assume everyone wanted to start whatever was next), then why don’t we boo every noob kid who walks on stage for prelims when we know they won’t advance?
Well, it’s a touch ironic that yoyoers show ridicule for silly niche activities when they are partaking in the same exact thing. It’s truly a fickle, two-faced crowd, and I think may be a touch defensive considering they’re justifying playing with a freakin’ /yoyo/ as if other toys are less worthy in the eyes of the Grand Objective Court of “That’s Dumb.” You sound like the people who ridicule yoyos, and I know how much you hate those.
“$90 for a /TOP/?”
Buys and justifies $100 yoyo
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The World Contest has always made an effort to lay out the judging criteria ahead of time. There are always going to be differences in perspective between judges, so it’s impossible to know exactly how something will be scored. That’s especially true when you have to judge performances as complex and diverse as yoyo freestyles where you can see hundreds of unique tricks that you may or may not have ever seen before. They do put out the framework that all the judges are following for any English-speaking player or viewer to see, though. Translating the rules into other languages would be a major step forward, but unfortunately that hasn’t been feasible given the resources available to the contest organizers in the past. Hopefully the IYYF will be able to address that issue going forward.
The judging system has been thoroughly discussed many times over the years, and has evolved several times to try to find the best system possible. The issue is that there is no consensus for what that should be, so there are always people who are dissatisfied with it. It isn’t for lack of thought put into it, though. Part of this can also contribute to the lack of standardization between contests. Sometimes smaller contests will try out new judging criteria that emphasize different skills to test out a new system or to encourage different types of performances.
String hits are not really the basis of scoring. Judges score any trick element they feel is advanced enough. You can score several points with difficult or well performed elements that don’t contain many string hits, and you can perform basic string hits that don’t score any points. Players that have a lot of string hits tend to be doing a lot of advanced elements that demonstrate high levels of skill and control, which leads to good scores if performed well, but no one is literally counting string hits. Even in Worlds-winning freestyles, you sometimes see extended sections without any string hits. Elite competitors also stay within speeds where they can maintain control, speeding up or slowing down as the trick necessitates rather than trying to speed through every trick. Basically, none of the top competitors are truly maximizing string hits in their freestyles. They are closer to maximizing the amount of skill and control they can demonstrate with a yoyo, which often involves speed and sometimes involves lots of string hits, but doesn’t have to. The current system also places more emphasis on performance elements and avoiding major mistakes like restarts or knots than it used to (though if you go back far enough, the performance aspect was bigger than it is now).
Well said, Yossarian. I wasn’t saying the WYYC didn’t put out the criteria beforehand, I was suggesting that the smaller contests needed to. As for string hits, I think there’s still tons of confusion about it out there. Some people say they user the clicker to “score” (thus giving multiple clicks for what they deem to be good tricks), while others are clicking hits as best they can.
I know that there’s disagreement out there, but the current lack of consensus makes every contest fodder for complaints.
As for Worlds, I would say that the judges sure got finals right for the 1A and 5A top five. Those were some great freestyles! You can quibble about the order of those 5, but they all certainly deserved to be in the elite realm.
I think the OP has the right idea asking people to think before they react, especially in that context. But, then there is me, the realist. I know that despite asking, most people will do what they are used to doing, react without thinking.
In every sport or contest imaginable, you have people unhappy with the results, scores, calls by referees and all that. It happens in every sport you can imagine. You’ve heard of the term “arm chair quarterback,” and such. I have said time and time again, that this community is no different than the general public, when it comes to the human element. Their reactions were rather “typical.” Not what you would hope for, but they reacted…how people tend to react. While I think some people groaning do not know what they are talking about, I believe that some of them probably do.
The problem for me, is not that people are dissatisfied with the results, it is the way in which they express it that matters most. I think people have a right to their opinion, and the issue was touched on in the “World on a String” movie as it relates to the frustration with not just specific judges, but the judging system as a whole.
Rather than say, I disagree for this reason, people instead just post “that’s stupid,” or “retarded.” So, my issue is not the disagreement or difference of opinion about anything, it is the way it is expressed. I don’t have a problem with giving it back to someone who dished it out first, believe me. But, in this context, there are people who spent a whole year preparing to give their very best, and I would agree that there has been a level of disrespect to the competitors.
People will criticize their favorite NBA player, or NFL player, when they can’t play ball as well themselves. Human beings do it all the time. They criticize the referee calling some game, when they are watching from the bleachers, not up close. Or, they have the benefit of instant replay on television. People are being people, and while we might hope for better…I don’t see it coming. Sad but true. I have been guilty of it, and I am positive that I am not the only one on here. I cannot think of a time right now, but I’m sure that in my lifetime, I have reacted without thinking at some point…because I am human. No one is perfect all the time.
Now, when you have half an audience react and groan all at the same time, some of that cannot be helped. No one can predict that fifty other people are going to groan and moan at the exact same time. It just happens, and unfortunately, when it happens in unison, it’s definitely a bad look. :-\ What was a groan under your breath as an individual, when multiplied by a hundred people, becomes one loud groan in the room. Then, the question has to be raised, that if so many people are groaning, all at the same time, is there some credibility to their feelings? My answer would be…maybe so.
As posted above, perhaps we should engage in a discussion as a community about why so many people felt that way at that moment. What caused that reaction of so many people all at the same time? Was there something that could have been done better at the contest…and a lot of people noticed it at the same time? I’m not sure, I was not there. I think there is some disrespect in spots, but I also think that people have been expressing displeasure with judging for years, and they have not seen many changes, which might contribute to these kinds of attitudes.
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I don’t even think he is going that far. It is more along the lines of “hey, these people are giving up their free time and traveling quite far in order to do a tough and demanding job. Show some respect for the people willing to do this.” Calling people disability based derogatory names because they don’t agree with a score is pathetic. People need to realize that there are many parents with autistic children in this world… I know for a fact that two parents were helping run parts of Worlds 2013. How do you think they will take these types of insults?
One of the issues with something as subjective as yoyo is that judging will always be a matter of “interpretation” and “personal preferences”.
From videos I’ve seen(documentary stuff), players had to complete the trick ladders to get to the main stage and show their goods. I’m not saying this was a fair system, but it established a “minimum expected level of competence” For me, this will likely be a level I will never achieve, but that’s OK, I don’t compete.
With things like gymnastics, there are the “compulsory rounds”, where they basically have to do certain things a certain way in a certain order. They also have this in figure skating and ice dancing. It’s rather cut and dry here, but they can score it based on a rigid criteria. The yoyo trick ladders are a bit more rigid because it’s “you either CAN or you CAN’T”, or maybe “you DID or you DIDN’T”.
So, with the trick ladders being their own division, we can’t judge people based on a “minimum expectation”. I guess in some ways this is good. This also cuts down time on contest day for time spent qualifying I suppose. I bet there’s plenty of awesome kids in the prelims who can’t do all of the trick ladder stuff either.
Without a compulsory round, we go straight to a freestyle judging format. I’m glad I’m not judging this. 1 minute for a person to amaze and prove they deserve to go on to the next round, all while being judged in a subjective manner. Here’s where I would have the issue, which shows why I would not be suitable as a judge: So many people doing so many different things so many different was. Judging the level of difficulty is where I would have the problems. I do feel that most judges are able to put aside biases and preferences towards players and just try to be as fair as possible.
Then, this goes on for maybe a semi-final round and then a finals? That’s a lot.
With no 2 players doing the same thing, and everyone doing their own thing, that’s just a whole lot of randomness to take in and process in real time. The only people who can effectively judge this are people with extremely high levels of skill and knowledge.
What I’ve seen in the past 2 years isn’t much. Even being there running sound at contests, I have a good vantage point, but I can’t see everything judges see. Often, I’m ending up getting too much of a view of a player’s backside. I have seen a lot of scoring move away from string tricks being a main factor. I’ve seen the judging moving towards a system that lets more stylistic and flow-type players have a more even chance against the speed demons. It has helped level the playing field a bit.
If you question the judges, do this, because this is what I do:
First, if you can, download the Top 3 finisher’s videos in each division. I say download because you need to watch them time and time again, a luxury the judges didn’t have.
Then, ALSO, if you can, download your favorite players in each division.
Compare, contrast.
Now, let me inject some person biases.
I haven’t watched all the 4A performances yet. Bryan Figueroa is one of my favorite 4A players. I personally felt he always puts on an amazing and entertaining routine. However, due to mistakes, it prevented him from placing top 3. I can’t argue that. Ben Conde is another player I like, but his style sometimes gets on my nerves. Again, big risks equals bigger chance for mistake. Mistakes equal deductions.
I personally did not care for the 1st Place 4A routine. While there were mistakes, it was significantly cleaner than Ben and Bryan. Sorry, I haven’t seen 2nd and 3rd yet, my provider is choking on almost anything I move.
Another favorite player, Joseph Harris, who I felt overall had a strong routine, without seeing the top 3 yet, I knew due to what errors I saw, a Top3 finish wasn’t in his future, especially with that tangle he got out of, but it cost him time and points on many levels.
Mickey flat out disappointed me. I think he brought his A-game, but on stage, I think it just didn’t go his way for whatever reason and I could see some frustration up there. It just wasn’t an A-game level freestyle that hit that stage. And yes, I haven’t seen the Top 3 either, but I could tell his performance wasn’t up there. Also, he seems to be having an off-season as well.
From what I have seen since 2011, I feel the judging is getting more standardized, not just in writing, but in practical application of it. It’s getting better. It still needs some work, but it always will.
I would actually like to judge an event, not so much for my judging to count, but to see how much I am NOT seeing or missing. I would like to be judged as a judge. Not even a whole event, but say, maybe 5 people, just to get a taste of it. I’d honestly like to see how far off the mark I am.
Interpretive judging will always have issues and critics. Let’s give them some respect for doing a job that’s extremely difficult to do. I just can’t see myself being able to sit there for hours like that(even with breaks) judging people like that. It would make my eyes blur. At this point, the points have been compiled, tracked and saved. The contest is over and the decisions are final.
Let’s move on and learn from what just happened so we can ensure things always remain as fair as possible. Every contest is a chance to learn and improve.