Economic Theories on YoYo Pricing

[yoyodoc]

So, the entire 5 years before you faded out of the yoyo hobby, I was into it. And the entire 10 years you were away from the yoyo hobby, I was into it.
And now that you have been back into the Hobby, it has taken you one month to identify the one ’ not nice’ person on this Entire board.

Good Job.

[felipe]

So, the entire 5 years before you faded out of the yoyo hobby, I was into it. And the entire 10 years you were away from the yoyo hobby, I was into it.
And now that you have been back into the Hobby, it has taken you one month to identify the one ’ not nice’ person on this Entire board.

Good Job.

It did not take me 1 month to identify you, it took me 3 posts of yours. I gave the chance of doubt to your rudeness at first, and even posted this, recognizing that you’ve lived yoyo your whole life:

@felipe

I understand you’re a super awesome yoyo professional who knows your stuff, and I acknowledge and admire all your achievements, but you’re not being constructive in any way with your comments.

But now I understand that you’re just rude and impolite, who thinks little of other people for no other reasons than your own ego.

You’ve aged well.

[da5id]

Interesting thread, although I’m not quite sure exactly what is being discussed/argued … besides exact numbers, what are you all trying figure out?

The truth is that it is more expensive and more difficult to run a (any) business than people generally think. The high end yoyo market is small and extremely competitive. No one can decide if things are booming, busting, or remaining static. At One Drop this is how we make our living. This is the most challenging and at the same time rewarding thing we have ever done. You all are a tough lot and have standards and preferences that are just about impossible to figure out and meet but we give it our best go.

An MBA would probably tell us that our business model (in house American manufacturing of an extremely niche market product) is bound to fail. We believe in what we are doing and that there are plenty of people who (thankfully) appreciate what we do. The support we get from all you is how we get through this and continue to exist as a company. If you weren’t buying our yoyos, we would no longer be making them.

On a side note, go easy on Yoyodoc. He knows a lot of stuff and you can learn from him. Yoyodoc likes to leave voicemail at One Drop … well, I mean, he likes to call us but we usually don’t answer because we are busy making yoyos in a loud factory so he usually gets our voice mail. He then goes on to leave long messages that are really funny and he gives us much love and support. Many days have been blessed with a good laugh with a voice mail from him I don’t think his sense of humor translates well to text if you haven’t ever talked to him in person.

Also, thanks for getting Rallys! I hope you all like them. You talk about costs and all that stuff - man was doing a plastic yoyo in house in America tough. We are really proud of the result.

[stookie]

@TotalArtist

@stookie

^

I think you’re just making it unnecessarily complicated for the sake of argument. Ok, you’re the one case where none of this works and therefore it invalidates everything. I totally disagree with that argument on its face because it’s nigh on meaningless in the grand scheme of things, and has very little to do with the point I’m trying to make. And as an aside, anyone who thinks they have any real power at all to resist marketing tactics or the approval of others are patently ignorant of the truth. We give ourselves a lot more credit than we deserve when it comes to forming opinions about things presented to us…in fact, we’re pretty darn awful at seeing anything objectively, especially so when that thing is being actively marketed to us by a company or our peers. This is not even arguable.

Your estimation that a company does not have control over this, but it is rather the doing of a core group of fans…outright nonsense. The mythos of a brand like Ferrari or even CLYW is driven by the “dream”. They’re driven by whatever emotional response that occurs which causes a 12 year old boy to want to hang a picture of a Ferrari in his bedroom. It’s an image, and it’s calculated to a T.

Any complication might been your inability to comprehend the point I made. There was nothing complicated about saying that I decide what I want to buy. Period. Because to simplify for you, that is the point. You can believe it, not believe it, you don’t know me, so I do not care what you think in the slightest. It seems you believe a company can brainwash people into believing some “image.” You don’t give people any credit for making a decision for themselves, and just simply liking a company and their products…or not.

No, I am not the only one who can resist marketing tactics, because again, many have posted that they do not buy certain company’s throws, and that is despite any marketing tactics employed by that company. I don’t even see any aggressive marketing from the company that you named. So, people should take responsibility for the fact that they just want products because they want them. There are a few who are cheap, or broke, or for whatever reason, don’t think they should have to pay what the business wants for them.

You have control over what you “want,” not the business. Anyone who does not have that control is weak, and that is no one else’s problem but their own. No one is forcing toys on anyone here. This is not food that you might have to buy anyway…it is a yo-yo. That you think your opinion is a fact and not arguable is the most nonsense of all. You just don’t like that I disagree with you, and I certainly do not. The point is simple, you decide if you want something or not. A million products are marketed to you, but you only buy certain ones, and the reason why, is that you determine and filter out what you “want,” of the bunch. I don’t buy everything I see on television commercials…I decide what I “want” to try and what I do not want to buy. Marketing just lets me know what is out there, but the ultimate decision is mine. Anyone who has no control has a weak mind, but that is not the problem of any business.

And yes, some 12 year old boys have a Ferrari photo in their room, but so what? It is irrelevant. Why? Because some 12 year old boys decided that “they don’t want a Ferrari.” Some made a “decision” that they’re not into cars, they love motorcycles, or bicycles instead. Others love cars, but have another poster on their wall, of other cars instead. Some made the decision to like Ferrari, or not, but the choice was theirs in the end. If a company had their way, and all this overwhelming “control,” everyone on earth would like their products, but it will never be true, and it can never be the case. I hope that simplifies things so you can grasp it.

I think the mindset of a person who thinks as you describe…only describes you. Where are the studies that back up those “facts” that are “not arguable.” Saying “everyone knows that” and it is not “arguable” does not make it a fact, it just means that is what you think. Even if you found a study, I can find a result in the alternative. At the end of the day, it is your opinion. But, I can tell you how I think, and that is a fact. Believe it or not…I don’t care. As for your opinion, you could probably guess what I think of that anyway. There is no “sake of argument.” You can reply or not, the choice is yours. If there was an “argument” it would take two…would it not?

And even with all this, you are still missing the point entirely, and just arguing to be right. It makes no difference whatsoever whether or not you like CLYW or whether or not any other aspect of this massive diatribe has any relevance to anything anyone may once have thought. The point is that CLYW is an image-driven company. You’re not even attempting to understand and I can tell because you haven’t actually engaged with my point at at all. 1 or 10 or 100 people not buying CLYW doesn’t make a bit of difference.

As for the marketing and “brainwashing” stuff, you’re just spouting off nonsense that sounds good. I have a psych master’s with a focus on ergonomics. I spent the better part of 7 years trying to figure out how to make you do things that someone who employed me would want you to do, whether it was via the design of a website, or the layout of a display in a grocery store, or any number of other situations. You’re an animal, you can be conditioned, you can be influenced. It’s not even very difficult. You want proof? Coca Cola doesn’t spend billions a year sponsoring everything under the sun and running a bazillion ad campaigns because that stuff doesn’t work. They do it because it does. Sorry to burst your bubble.

If you want a practical example, go to the grocery store and look at the 2 liter bottles of soda. They’re always displayed in rows. If you’re there in the evening when the store’s been picked over, you’ll notice that, for some reason, certain rows of the same soda brand will be completely gone while other rows are virtually untouched. It makes no sense, all rows should be picked from evenly, or at least the rows on either side should be picked over first. That is, it doesn’t make sense until you know the reason this happens is because people pick from the same rows that they can tell have been picked by others. There is nothing to gain from it and they’re not thinking about it, but this apparent endorsement by other people still affects their decision because it’s so ingrained in who we are. This same person, who just walked an extra 3 feet to pick the same soda they could have gotten 3 feet earlier, would turn right around and say “advertising doesn’t affect ME”.

[Totalartist]

@stookie

@TotalArtist

@stookie

^

I think you’re just making it unnecessarily complicated for the sake of argument. Ok, you’re the one case where none of this works and therefore it invalidates everything. I totally disagree with that argument on its face because it’s nigh on meaningless in the grand scheme of things, and has very little to do with the point I’m trying to make. And as an aside, anyone who thinks they have any real power at all to resist marketing tactics or the approval of others are patently ignorant of the truth. We give ourselves a lot more credit than we deserve when it comes to forming opinions about things presented to us…in fact, we’re pretty darn awful at seeing anything objectively, especially so when that thing is being actively marketed to us by a company or our peers. This is not even arguable.

Your estimation that a company does not have control over this, but it is rather the doing of a core group of fans…outright nonsense. The mythos of a brand like Ferrari or even CLYW is driven by the “dream”. They’re driven by whatever emotional response that occurs which causes a 12 year old boy to want to hang a picture of a Ferrari in his bedroom. It’s an image, and it’s calculated to a T.

Any complication might been your inability to comprehend the point I made. There was nothing complicated about saying that I decide what I want to buy. Period. Because to simplify for you, that is the point. You can believe it, not believe it, you don’t know me, so I do not care what you think in the slightest. It seems you believe a company can brainwash people into believing some “image.” You don’t give people any credit for making a decision for themselves, and just simply liking a company and their products…or not.

No, I am not the only one who can resist marketing tactics, because again, many have posted that they do not buy certain company’s throws, and that is despite any marketing tactics employed by that company. I don’t even see any aggressive marketing from the company that you named. So, people should take responsibility for the fact that they just want products because they want them. There are a few who are cheap, or broke, or for whatever reason, don’t think they should have to pay what the business wants for them.

You have control over what you “want,” not the business. Anyone who does not have that control is weak, and that is no one else’s problem but their own. No one is forcing toys on anyone here. This is not food that you might have to buy anyway…it is a yo-yo. That you think your opinion is a fact and not arguable is the most nonsense of all. You just don’t like that I disagree with you, and I certainly do not. The point is simple, you decide if you want something or not. A million products are marketed to you, but you only buy certain ones, and the reason why, is that you determine and filter out what you “want,” of the bunch. I don’t buy everything I see on television commercials…I decide what I “want” to try and what I do not want to buy. Marketing just lets me know what is out there, but the ultimate decision is mine. Anyone who has no control has a weak mind, but that is not the problem of any business.

And yes, some 12 year old boys have a Ferrari photo in their room, but so what? It is irrelevant. Why? Because some 12 year old boys decided that “they don’t want a Ferrari.” Some made a “decision” that they’re not into cars, they love motorcycles, or bicycles instead. Others love cars, but have another poster on their wall, of other cars instead. Some made the decision to like Ferrari, or not, but the choice was theirs in the end. If a company had their way, and all this overwhelming “control,” everyone on earth would like their products, but it will never be true, and it can never be the case. I hope that simplifies things so you can grasp it.

I think the mindset of a person who thinks as you describe…only describes you. Where are the studies that back up those “facts” that are “not arguable.” Saying “everyone knows that” and it is not “arguable” does not make it a fact, it just means that is what you think. Even if you found a study, I can find a result in the alternative. At the end of the day, it is your opinion. But, I can tell you how I think, and that is a fact. Believe it or not…I don’t care. As for your opinion, you could probably guess what I think of that anyway. There is no “sake of argument.” You can reply or not, the choice is yours. If there was an “argument” it would take two…would it not?

And even with all this, you are still missing the point entirely, and just arguing to be right. It makes no difference whatsoever whether or not you like CLYW or whether or not any other aspect of this massive diatribe has any relevance to anything anyone may once have thought. The point is that CLYW is an image-driven company. You’re not even attempting to understand and I can tell because you haven’t actually engaged with my point at at all. 1 or 10 or 100 people not buying CLYW doesn’t make a bit of difference.

As for the marketing and “brainwashing” stuff, you’re just spouting off nonsense that sounds good. I have a psych master’s with a focus on ergonomics. I spent the better part of 7 years trying to figure out how to make you do things that someone who employed me would want you to do, whether it was via the design of a website, or the layout of a display in a grocery store, or any number of other situations. You’re an animal, you can be conditioned, you can be influenced. It’s not even very difficult. You want proof? Coca Cola doesn’t spend billions a year sponsoring everything under the sun and running a bazillion ad campaigns because that stuff doesn’t work. They do it because it does. Sorry to burst your bubble.

If you want a practical example, go to the grocery store and look at the 2 liter bottles of soda. They’re always displayed in rows. If you’re there in the evening when the store’s been picked over, you’ll notice that, for some reason, certain rows of the same soda brand will be completely gone while other rows are virtually untouched. It makes no sense, all rows should be picked from evenly, or at least the rows on either side should be picked over first. That is, it doesn’t make sense until you know the reason this happens is because people pick from the same rows that they can tell have been picked by others. There is nothing to gain from it and they’re not thinking about it, but this apparent endorsement by other people still affects their decision because it’s so ingrained in who we are. This same person, who just walked an extra 3 feet to pick the same soda they could have gotten 3 feet earlier, would turn right around and say “advertising doesn’t affect ME”.

I have specifically addressed your point, and brought up my own in addition. You can repeat yourself but it is all still the same. I have no need to argue to be right, I told you how I act and think…which is a fact, and “right,” with no need to convince you. You don’t know me. With every new statement and comment you write…I disagree. For the purpose of who reads that nonsense, they should see my response. It is more for others than you, so try not to flatter yourself. As far as writing anything to “sound good,” I’m glad you think it did, because on that we do agree. Rather than focus on image driving CLYW, which is some conspiracy theory, that we are all a bunch of brainwashed creatures, with no ability to think for ourselves, maybe consider that they have good products that some people like, and leave it at that.

Again, CLYW is not Coca Cola. Where is this overwhelming marketing that is controlling all these people and making them want to buy? I asked you and you have not answered. I did not miss your point, you just have no real answer for that, so there is a difference. How are they, as a business, pushing their image? Tell me what their marketing is that is different from all others. There is actually less than a lot of other companies. That proves my point that there are way more variables than a conspiracy about buying into an image, that determined CLYW’s success.

I’m an animal, but one with a capability of rationalizing, so that just adds to my point. I can make a rational decision about what I want to buy…period. Your Master’s degree makes you no expert in that area, any more than my doctor of the law degree makes me an “expert” in the law. Just suffice it to say that you’ve read some books that have convinced you of your opinion. It has not enlightened me. The difference between you and I, is that I don’t need the books, as I can make my own observations and I know what determines my choices. All that about picking from shelves at the grocery store does not convince me of anything. I have watched too many people shop to believe that people are picking a brand from a shelf because they see a dent in the stock. I picked the Lucky Charms because I came in looking for Lucky Charms…they taste good, how about it end there instead. It has a pretty red box, with pictures of marshmallows…I like marshmallows…cool, it’s a go. Simple as that. I guess people have to write text books about something. And they have to convince people to read them somehow too.

In the end, you are one of the creatures you describe, you are convinced, I am not. These posts can prove that we are nothing alike. You are not right, so leave it at that. You just have your perspective. You came in here after all those hours to say nothing new. I’m not going to buy a box of cereal and say that big bad Kelloggs made me do it with those commercials. Post and General Mills just didn’t have enough commercials. Just a bunch of nonsense. I know me, and how I make my decisions, and don’t need an excuse, or some guy with a Master’s to tell me what he read about why I make them. I can own up to it being my decision. I have no one else to blame.

You can write the same thing again, and I will tell you…again. You came back in here after all those hours to say nothing new, and announce your degree. Cool…I have one too. Congratulations.

[RobK]

And again, I will jump in here to support TotalArtist’s perspective. Let I not be taken seriously, I have a Ph.D. and own a business that deals with psychological and educational measurement.

So, my take is the following:

We are all animals, and we can be conditioned. We can also take responsibility for ourselves, and condition ourselves to conduct due diligence, our own research, and reach our own conclusions. Advertising and marketing is powerful, but it will not be in itself sufficient. There will always be a segment of the market that is not going to do their own research and draw their own conclusions, and they will fall victim to the manipulation of the marketing engine, but at the same time there are plenty of people to whom the value of the product is determined by themselves, and if a company is going to sustain itself, it has to continue to deliver value, not just brainwashing.

The group of people who buy high end yoyos is a small one. Walk out on the street, and ask the next 100 people who OneDrop or CLYW are. I bet you get 100 blank stares. There is no powerful marketing machine here feeding us their messages.

So that leads us to perceived value based on price as the mechanism of brainwashing? In a crowded market place, like high end yoyos, do you really think the mere presence of a slightly higher price is what gives them the perceived value? We have several high end manufacturers at that price point: CLYW, YYR, TP, Oxy, etc. Every single one of these companies has to find a way to stay financially viable. All of them may hold themselves to maintaining higher margins because the yoyos sell out, and there is no need to lower their prices to sell, but none are doing it to add perceived value, I’d bet. They are doing it because they are selling at prices that they believe the market will bear, and that they will remain financially viable with.

I can guarantee you that if CLYW released a stinker of a yoyo, the whole community will be talking about it and that will be that. In the mean time, they are doing what they can to deliver actual value at their price point: high performance and high aesthetics. These values are what drive people to buy them. They do not resonate as strongly with me as TP does. I have several TPs, and one CLYW. To be honest, I could probably live the rest of my life without a yoyo. Having a classic set up unresponsive would probable be a way I could live my life playing with yoyos and being satisfied. That yoyo can outperform my abilities.

So, why do we buy what we buy in the high end yoyo market. Well, there are certainly trends. CLYW seems to be a popular variety, and I’m sure there are many who are attracted by the image they perceive of the yoyo. And this is also likely influenced by the company PR and their sponsored players, and their friends who have them. Buy there is not an insidious marketing machine brainwashing kids trying to raised perceived values based on price point, or you’d see it with YYR and TP and sOMETHING, and Oxy, and…

I like some of these brands for reasons that are the results of conditioning, I’m sure. I am drawn to small businesses. Therefore I prefer the small companies over yomega, duncan, and YYF. But I am not drawn to a small company with a product that is lesser than the mass manufactured good. I am drawn to precision machining. I just like well engineered and executed things (I collect pinball machines). I like elements of design. YYR and TP appealed to me most initially. I have broadened my palate as I have tried more things. Somethings that appealed to me initially no longer do, after spending time with them. Price is not an issue for me, though I do appreciate good value. I will pay more if I believe I am getting something for that money. Even if it is aesthetic. These are multifaceted issues within my own head that are balanced amongst each other, and against other factors, and they lead to me making my decisions. Marketing can influence the decision, but it will not sustain a decision, and I am old enough, and experienced enough, to know that about myself. I have developed an ability to evaluate products based on their value to me, and make my decisions accordingly. You’d be surprised how many people do this.