I don’t think it’s something you can opt out of. Whether or not you end up buying them has no bearing on how the’re presented or how they’re seen.
I mean…you don’t own a Ferrari, and even if you had the money, I don’t know if you do, you might not buy one. But that really doesn’t change the fact that it has been massaged into a brand with an image that transcends anything that is objectively true about their cars. And the exotic-ness, rarity, and price are very, very much a part of why we think the way we do about them. If they were cheaper or more common, but were otherwise exactly the same, something would be lost.
And I think CLYW is doing exactly that same thing in the yoyo world. They’re not just yoyo’s. There’s a lore there, and something extra that is being sold. I think the proof for that is absolutely everywhere, because the sort of hype that happens around this company is not matched by the company’s size or power to market. It’s our brains and our perception of the brand that fills in the gap. I do believe other companies are popular, I just don’t see them working in the same way that CLYW does.
Sarah, where were you? Now you pop up and ruin my Speech, lol
Outstanding fundamental list of contributing cost factors/overhead…
You sure saved me some typing(I think).
I will go over your list and expand on various entries for clarity/depth.
I was mentally processing the various types of Yoyo related Businesses. To decide which one to focus on first. Grouping them all together but would not really be an effective way to clear up anything.
For example> 1. Yoyo startups/micro brewery style. Like G2 I do not know Jake but I don’t think of G2 as being a Yoyo Business… Business. More like a guy that has all the stuff done and then arranges to sell it/have it sold, etc. most likely has his Headquarters at home.
Yoyoexpert. Has Staff. Has leased or rented building. Handles a lot of inventory. Handles website factors. Has financial involvement in Promoting yoyo events, etc.
One Drop. Has full time staff. On site owners run the show. Is either : buying building, leasing building or renting building. Does machine work, assembly, boxing/shipping, pretty much from start to finish, in house. Has ano work farmed out to Evan At Toxic. Supports team. Helps sponsor events. Everything made in the United States. Etc.
Yoyofactory. Leases or rents substantially sized facility. Mainly : office spaces, research and development, assembly and shipping department, etc. Subsidizes Team functions, including Substantial costs involved in Team member travel, which includes not only airfare but hotels and food expenses, etc… Supports various events. Continuous monitoring of All offsite manufacturing operations, etc.
Dale already had his own Building, long before he ever made a yoyo. Machine work done in house. All design engineering done in house. All Plastic yoyo forming done in house. Dale does much of his own ano work, in house. Sponsors sizable Team, like Yoyofactory. Sponsors many events. Like Yoyofactory, has yoyos at just about every conceivable price point. Dale has all work done in the United States. Most assembly done at location in another State(Georgia).
All the above are Yoyo Businesses, but at the same time have different Business models based on the functionality of the Various critical aspects.
Since my hand is kinda jacked up at the moment, I will not address every single type of yoyo Business listed above.
Because Totalartists was awesome enough to run down various factors pertinent to YoBiz in general, I will key off her entries, line item style, to pull in some ‘thickness’ to her various entries. And possibly add a few cost factors.
B BAC tomorrow or I should say later today, since it is already today. < hey, I’m still awake so I might as well augment Totalartists’ excellent list. I will paste it below. And after various entries, I will place a forward slash / and insert some extra stuffing so to speak.
The machining or cost of maintaining and running machines/ also costs resulting from enhancing-modifying machines and costs of adding machines or devices to aid in efficiency.
Staff salaries
Electric bill
Gas or oil heat bill
Phone bill
Web hosting/design
Shipping to anodizer and retail stores
Gas mileage for errands/ and costs of maintaining vehicle(s) used for errands. And costs associated with land Travel by Team members. Costs of buying or leasing the-these vehicles.
Packing material and boxes
Artwork/ and equipment possibly used to implement artwork: laser engravers, hot stamping, etc.
String
Bearings
Response
Team airfare/ and Team hotel rooms, food, pocket change, taxi cabs possibly, private Team meetings-dinner, etc.
Free yo-yos for the team and prototypes
Promotional prizes for contests/YYE cards?/ and costs of sponsoring events. For example, being a major Sponsor of Nationals or Worlds can cost up to $5,000.
Anodizing/ and the possible costs resulting from anodizing Failures<>strip and re-ano or possibly batch or partial batch to recycling bin(direct loss- production flow interrupt).
Letterhead, printer paper, ink, pens and pencils.
Taxes
Internet service.
Computers (and software) buying, maintaining and updating
Unpaid startup loan perhaps
Design consultant perhaps?
Rent or mortgage for the office/building
<> modify as things come to mind. Totalartists did beat me to the finish with a pretty good list, though.
I would like to add a few things to address some comments that arose during the thread.
First, suggesting how much money should the Yoyo Business owners should make? Completely none of your/my business. No one ever said YoBiz owners had to be transparent. They make what they make. They dont need to limit their salaries to please anyone.
Do certain Yoyo Company’s over price their yoyos? It may be their fault, but it is our problem if we don’t like it. 'If you go into a restaurant and sit down and look at the Menu and you don’t like the prices, get up and leave. Nobody owes you a meal at a price you like. If enough people don’t like certain yoyo prices, don’t buy the yoyos… nobody buy the yoyos and the Company will have to deal with it.
Comparing. YYJ Surge price point to a Rally/Yeti price point, is pointless.
Making comments about what types of fancy cars Yoyo Company owners drive? I hope they all drive Ferraris, a different color one every day.
Suggesting that some folks deliberately inflate the prices of yoyos to give the prospective buyer an artificial impression of ‘value/performance’? It happens in a place called Fantasyland. Yoyo Company’s make yoyos to sell them, not sit on them.
Suggesting that CLYW cranks up the prices of their yoyos so every could not afford to have a collection of them, is pretty darn hilarious. Because how special would your collection be if everybody had the same exclusive collection? Man, if that is not not a double duh, I don’t know what is.
Now personally, my slightly illogical brain fringe feels that Chris could bring down his prices 10 or 15 bucks on each model. Because like most of you, I use One Drop pricing(closer to a hundred) and the contrast make CLYW prices look ‘high’. But my logical mind suggests you have to also consider that One Drop does their stuff ‘in house’, so their cost per unit does not have as much ‘outsourcing costs’. Chris is having others handle his various machining processes so there is ‘another hand in the mix’. His root costs are most likely higher so his price structure has to be bumped up a notch so he can make his ‘margin’.
If Chris can’t make a final take home pay to subsidize his lifestyle, he is just spinning his wheels.
Yoyojam, Yoyofactory, CLYW and One Drop and YYE are all ‘Yoyo Businesses’. But their Business models are different. But they all approach their missions in the same mindset: make/or/provide high quality products at various price points, stimulate interest, generate sales, sustain sales through positive marketing and product availability and provide customer confidence with excellent customer service,
And hopefully while maintaining all aspects, not only cover all Overhead, but make a reasonable Profit to justify their efforts.
I see what you mean, but disagree about opting out.
I don’t care about Ferrari, so they are not “seen” in any way by me. I have no perception, because they don’t matter to me. I know they cost a lot, but I know nothing else about them. Same for a lot of other things I don’t care about. That’s what I mean, is that their image is well promoted to who buys into it. I have control over my perception of CLYW, and of course I can’t control everyone else’s perception of them, that goes without saying. How I view what they are selling is in my control…not theirs.
How they are “presented” depends on how I view their presentation. How they are seen, is through my eyes, which is the only view I am capable of fully appreciating. I see myself in full control of their image through “my eyes.” In light of that, I can certainly, personally opt out. If everyone else wants in, so be it. There are people who post here on the forum who have opted out and don’t buy CLYW or see them as a big deal. There are people who do not buy into what “everyone else likes” in general. In fact, they will shun it and buy something they think should be the next best thing.
I just don’t see a company driving the bus on whether or not they will have this great image. A loud, core group of supporters and fans can create that impression. Or, a company can make the effort, but in the end, the customers are choosing to believe it…or not. Not every so called high end business survives, because in the end, the customers are driving the bus. Ferrari I know nothing about, but I chalk it up as they had a very good product, that a core group of supporters and customers raved about, and people who perceived those people as hip…followed suit. So, Ferrari is not only a great car, but hip and expensive…great. Because after all, it is a good product. Same here. CLYW is making a very good product, a core group of fans and supporters caught on, others perceived them as hip, and whoala…domino effect. After all, the yo-yos are good…no denying.
But, I do not feel anything pulling me to buy CLYW over any other company based on that. The only pressure to buy is for someone who wants to be “hip.” There is no lore there for me. There never was. I can afford to buy from anyone in the industry…and bought far less from them than others. I cannot control their image to the majority, but I can control me and what I think. Others have done the same. I think if anyone feels compelled to buy into an image, or feels drawn to buy into it through peer pressure or whatever…that’s their problem. I see it as less directed by the company, and more directed by the consumers. CLYW is just reaping the benefits of the affect.
I like CLYW products, but no more than anyone else’s. Based on those expenses I listed earlier, I wouldn’t dare question the prices…I just buy or not. Hope that makes sense. And, perhaps I am not the average either…it wouldn’t surprise me.
I think you’re just making it unnecessarily complicated for the sake of argument. Ok, you’re the one case where none of this works and therefore it invalidates everything. I totally disagree with that argument on its face because it’s nigh on meaningless in the grand scheme of things, and has very little to do with the point I’m trying to make. And as an aside, anyone who thinks they have any real power at all to resist marketing tactics or the approval of others are patently ignorant of the truth. We give ourselves a lot more credit than we deserve when it comes to forming opinions about things presented to us…in fact, we’re pretty darn awful at seeing anything objectively, especially so when that thing is being actively marketed to us by a company or our peers. This is not even arguable.
Your estimation that a company does not have control over this, but it is rather the doing of a core group of fans…outright nonsense. The mythos of a brand like Ferrari or even CLYW is driven by the “dream”. They’re driven by whatever emotional response that occurs which causes a 12 year old boy to want to hang a picture of a Ferrari in his bedroom. It’s an image, and it’s calculated to a T.
I hope you mean by having all the stuff done, just machining and anodizing. Everything else is handled by my wife and I.
HQ is our home, if you don’t have machines you don’t need an office unless you want a store front. Think about how large CLYW. It’s run out of Chris’s home. With only a on and off part time employee. Outsourcing the same work as we do at G2.
Just because a company is run out of someone’s home, does not make it an unreal company. Plenty of businesses are run from peoples houses. They’re just (Very) small companies. Your view that companies need to at least rent/lease/own their own facilities is strangely naive for that a grandpa.
TotalArtist. To answer your question about pay. I believe a lot, at least 150k. If it’s there only job, then they pay for everything. I work for a corporation and they pay part of my medical, pay into my 401 at 7%, they have a pension plan, retirement benefits, paid sick leave, paid vacation(1 month a year total) and I get free training (there about to pay 30k to send me to medical and rescue training) so they need a lot of money; just to support themselves. I can afford two cars a house and a lot of toys. People think owning your own business is gravy but they do all the work, its tough they should be rewarded handsomely. If they have a top company like CLYW or one drop then they should be at least in the top middle class. Think about it the company I work for trained me to do a job, if I had to come up with the ideas they taught me, yeah right I could not have. They are very special people with ideas that are 1 in a million. Take for example Chris from CLYW he has created one if the best Yoyo companies in the world, yes; he’s yoyo’s should cost a lot (Rolex nothing special but cost more than most watches), and he should be driving a Bentley( yes profit happens and it should), I would still buy from him if he was rich from this stuff, cause he has IDEAS(Which Everyone tries to copy)
Any complication might been your inability to comprehend the point I made. There was nothing complicated about saying that I decide what I want to buy. Period. Because to simplify for you, that is the point. You can believe it, not believe it, you don’t know me, so I do not care what you think in the slightest. It seems you believe a company can brainwash people into believing some “image.” You don’t give people any credit for making a decision for themselves, and just simply liking a company and their products…or not.
No, I am not the only one who can resist marketing tactics, because again, many have posted that they do not buy certain company’s throws, and that is despite any marketing tactics employed by that company. I don’t even see any aggressive marketing from the company that you named. So, people should take responsibility for the fact that they just want products because they want them. There are a few who are cheap, or broke, or for whatever reason, don’t think they should have to pay what the business wants for them.
You have control over what you “want,” not the business. Anyone who does not have that control is weak, and that is no one else’s problem but their own. No one is forcing toys on anyone here. This is not food that you might have to buy anyway…it is a yo-yo. That you think your opinion is a fact and not arguable is the most nonsense of all. You just don’t like that I disagree with you, and I certainly do not. The point is simple, you decide if you want something or not. A million products are marketed to you, but you only buy certain ones, and the reason why, is that you determine and filter out what you “want,” of the bunch. I don’t buy everything I see on television commercials…I decide what I “want” to try and what I do not want to buy. Marketing just lets me know what is out there, but the ultimate decision is mine. Anyone who has no control has a weak mind, but that is not the problem of any business.
And yes, some 12 year old boys have a Ferrari photo in their room, but so what? It is irrelevant. Why? Because some 12 year old boys decided that “they don’t want a Ferrari.” Some made a “decision” that they’re not into cars, they love motorcycles, or bicycles instead. Others love cars, but have another poster on their wall, of other cars instead. Some made the decision to like Ferrari, or not, but the choice was theirs in the end. If a company had their way, and all this overwhelming “control,” everyone on earth would like their products, but it will never be true, and it can never be the case. I hope that simplifies things so you can grasp it.
I think the mindset of a person who thinks as you describe…only describes you. Where are the studies that back up those “facts” that are “not arguable.” Saying “everyone knows that” and it is not “arguable” does not make it a fact, it just means that is what you think. Even if you found a study, I can find a result in the alternative. At the end of the day, it is your opinion. But, I can tell you how I think, and that is a fact. Believe it or not…I don’t care. As for your opinion, you could probably guess what I think of that anyway. There is no “sake of argument.” You can reply or not, the choice is yours. If there was an “argument” it would take two…would it not?
I think TotalArtist is representing the position of more people than you think. Maybe not the typical yoyo buyer, but there are people who think critically and independently, and are capable of mitigating the impact of advertising, marketing, and the opinions of others. I am influenced by marketing, but not controlled by it. I also can afford whatever yoyos I want, and have bought over 30 of them in the past month, mostly high end, and the only CLYW I bought is the summit. It’s nice. I’ll admit, but it is also as much a one drop as it is a CLYW. Is it as nice as my YYRs and TPs and Anglams? Probably. Is it nicer. Probably not. It is a delightful toy I enjoy playing with, but I am not drawn to buy every CLYW produced. I am in fact, not that interested in any of their other models at this point, and have no plans on getting another Summit. Yet, I am enjoying collecting YYRs, TPs and NSCos. Whatever. We all have our interests.
@Yoyodoc:
I don’t you if you read my posts at all, or not, but pretty much what you summarized in your long post was what I was trying to point out in my arguments. I may have not went to the nit and grit of every particular cost like TotalArtist did, because all other businesses have these costs, with the difference of the extremely expensive machines. Yoyo business is not that much different than any other business out there.
Also, you might think that calling someone ignorant out of nowhere is of no meaning, but it is extremely impolite. And I failed to see how more knowledgeable you are over me theorizing. I failed to be educated, at most I felt complimented.
Right everyone has there own reason to buy. I buy for play and art. Mostly One drop, General yo, and CLYW. But i think it is because when I started out One drop, was pushing the project. At the time it was still hard to get a project, it would sell out fast. Next was CLYW With there peak and BVM, still really hard to get, only got retail BVM, I think General Yo was the first company I actively started to collect, with the 5 stars, and everything since. I like American companies(except CLYW) but yeah there is a reason to collect and no one will change that for me.
Hey man, come on now. these posts are just being posted to try and make other people discussing this topic upset. Let’s not do that.
I think a lot of solid gold information was posted here last night/yesterday afternoon. It will be interesting to see what else is brought up. Also, what are we debating right now? It seems the focus of this thread has shifted from “reasons why we think yoyos cost what they cost” to justifying the high costs of certain companies. Anybody else think that?
I think some of the recent posts about manufacturing costs have made the assumption that because the costs of production are high, production costs are the only factor in a yoyo’s pricing.
I don’t have any inside scoop on any actual yoyo companies, but in most businesses there is more to the product pricing then just the cost of production.
Also please don’t forget that in the discussion we have been having that, nobody has any problem with the pricing on any yoyos from any company, or the business practices from any company. We all love the people who make our favorite toy, and nobody thinks were being cheated. It just makes sense to assume there is more to yoyo pricing then production. If there isn’t then yay, we have identified the marketing constraints of yoyo price economics, the point of the discussion. But there is no need to defend the yoyo prices and business policies, we are all ok with them.
Also if you are being rude, take a moment and remember we are a loving yoyo community and try to stay civil.
I agree we have probably gone off topic a bit with that. Its been mentioned a few times but its proven that people are willing to buy $150 yoyos. I think we should look at why the prices are set where they are, and how that affects the company and its reputation. and how that effects their success.
yoyodoc pointed out a bunch of different types of yoyo companies that run their business on different models. I think that each of those different types has more then just production costs to think about. they all have reasons for setting prices where they are. I think production is a starting point, but there is more to it then just that.
I would agree, as posted much, much earlier, that there are several factors that go into pricing. I even agreed earlier, that there may be a slight bump in price for some “high end” appeal, from a few companies…maybe. So, I thought we crossed that bridge and moved on to costs. No one had been detailing the production costs, so we went through them. But, I think the business costs are easier for people to “understand,” no matter the company, and easier for the average person to estimate and compare to their real life priorities, necessities and bills, so I think it is the easiest to grasp when discussing prices. That is totally on topic. Theories of speculating what a company “might” be doing or not…is not as clear. But, in the list I made, there are some bare bones costs that every company has to pay…that people can think about and say…“yeah, that would cost quite a bit.” That is why the discussion took that direction. The title being “Economic Theories on Yo-Yo Pricing,” how do we not go into the actual potential costs in detail? Well, it has been done now and noted.
On your new post, I would raise the same point as before. I believe that the answer to the question of why prices are set where they are, other than costs, has to do with variables, that we cannot and will never be privy to. So, part of the problem is that we will never, ever have a complete understanding from business to business. I think the question of how prices affect the company and their success…depends. But, I think it is the entirety of how they run their business that matters in determining success, not just prices. My belief is that prices alone never dictate. They may be a very small variable as I see it, if that, but nothing more.
You can have prices set high for a new company, but people don’t buy into it, so no one pays, and the company fails. Another company can set their prices high, but people buy into it, and everyone pays. I think there are just so many more convincing variables for determining success…moreso than price. For instance, there are companies offering nothing more “special” than anyone else product-wise, but their customer service, contributions to charity, other business affiliations, reputation of the owner and so on make people keep coming back for more. Some will pay a few extra bucks in price, if they think the company is reinvesting in the community. That’s how I see it.
There are companies surprising us releasing yo-yos at budget prices, that everyone thinks should cost more. I cannot say that I think those businesses are so much more successful for having done so. That is debatable, but for me, not clear and convincing. Then, companies are releasing yo-yos at high prices that people think they should cost less. I would not say that company is more or less successful on that basis either. Debatable, yet not clear and convincing. How do you even measure the degree of success without seeing the profits? We will never see that, and it cannot be determined anyway. So, just impossible to answer for lots of reasons.
For me, personally, price does not solely dictate my support of a company. For instance, YoyoExpert. I buy from here more than any other yo-yo store, not because I get every single throw cheaper, but because they have the best selection (I can buy multiple items I want and find them all in one place), the customer service is top notch, I like to support local business, I like the owner and believe in the vision, their contributions to charity and sponsoring events in the community…the list goes on. So, in all that, I don’t always care that BillyBob’s yo-yo is carrying yo-yo for a few bucks cheaper. I think YoYoExpert’s support is not based on price, as much as other factors. So, for me, price does not dictate my support. I can only speak for me on a factual basis. That may apply to an older consumer though…not sure.
It’s cool that we’re “all okay” with yo-yo prices, and appreciate the makers of these fine throws. Definitely good to know, especially after I took that time to make a list. The prices always look good to me anyway.
Grandpa returns… Wildcat, let me ask you something. Is it possible for you to grasp what I am saying without just twisting around what I am saying to support your assertions?
I did not say that G2 was an ‘unreal’ Company.
I did not say G2 is ‘not’ a ‘Company’ because Jake does not: own, rent, lease a building.
My point primarily was that my Yoyo Business explanation would not include G2 simply because his YoyoBiz is just getting going(basically) and to keep my view from being as long as the Bible, just identify that I was not talking about 'Micro Brewery type Company’s.
G2 has come up with 3 consecutive Excellent yoyos. And I am confident Jake will move right along and keep things Rockin for G2.
But at this point in time, my focus was more on larger Yoyo Businesses.
Funny how Jake responded a few posts down from my reply and did not seem ‘bothered’ by my explanation?
I can only ‘guess’ he knows I know how knows(his stuff). At the moment he is just operating on a smaller scale, then say ‘Yoyofactory’.
I could go on for an hour but some people just don’t want to hear what they don’t want to hear.
look at Felipe… After a pretty long detailed explanation(by me), Felipe could only dwell on my using the word ignorant(earlier on) and stating that nothing I said brought any more light to the matter than his ‘theory’. And if anything, he felt complimented. ?
If the guy is simply satisfied with his own theory and refuses to entertain other thoughts, oh well.
And yes I am a Grandpa, several times over. But naive is a very poor word choice in describing my level of understanding.
You sure have a way of saying people are stupid huh?
You did not bring anything other than what is basic in all other businesses. All businesses pay rent (in a way or another), pay staff, pay bills, have business partners (in this case suppliers and retailers), and invest in marketing. You called everyone ignorant over not knowing something that everyone who makes any sort of money knows, even the small kids at the BST.
You just think that this is magical knowledge that only you know? Sounds like you need some growing up to do grandpa. All you said (that you pointed out was pure awesome knowledge and I was an ignorant) I already knew, therefore I still feel complimented. You’re the ignorant here in thinking down of us.
Want to add something to this thread? Tell us how much time and money goes into designing and improving a yoyo. If you ever done machining, how costly it is to keep the machines running, how much training does one need to have to operate it at the standards needed for yoyos? How many yoyos go to the trash or recycling for not meeting quality standards? How many prototypes are needed to come up to a released product? I’m sure you’re qualified to answer these.
Do yourself a favor, Genius, speak for yourself. Don’t preach to me and say, ‘us’. You are not ‘us’. You are you. And even if everybody in this thread or on this entire Forum agrees with you, you are not the Elected Spokesperson for the Yoyo Community.
And yet again, somebody( in this case, you) wants to bolster his position by inserting a key word I did not use, ‘stupid’. I did not say anybody was/is stupid. You asserted that. How can you allow yourself to even approach an intelligent stance, if you are going to make up your own dialogue to justify your Higher Understanding?
So now you are dictating what info I should share to validate that I am ‘contributing’? Nice.
I am not a child, I can read between the lines, just because you didn’t write the word does not mean it’s meaning is not there. From the start you were completely impolite, and you still are.
If you did not refer to everyone on your posts, I fail to see where you didn’t, and that’s why I said ‘us’.
Go ahead and share your absolutely awesome knowledge that the ignorant people don’t know about, I’m out.
Ps: I’m not even close to representing the community, quite the contrary, I’m a guy who got back into yoyoing after more than 10 years, who’s yoyoing for about a month for now. This is not my life, it is a cool hobby that I picked up to develop a skill. I got engaged into this forum because people were friendly (other than you) and I like to share my thoughts. I, in no way represent the yoyo community, or even someone else, I’m just a new consumer.
