# F&F…. Here we go again🧐 **URL:** \ **Category:** General Yo-Yo\ **Created:** [March 25, 2023, 3:11am UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542 "2023-03-25T03:11:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![yoyodoc](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/forums.yoyoexpert.com/yoyodoc/32/48820_2.png) [@yoyodoc](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/yoyodoc)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 3:11am UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/1 "2023-03-25T03:11:08Z")
Some time back the general consensus was that Goods & Services was the Best method to insure protection for both parties in BST transactions. I had/have suggested in previous posts that PayPal is actually a For Profit Company. PayPal is not a charity program. They earn their fees by facilitating the swift movement of funds. No matter how you view the. Business Model’ of PayPal, you cannot rationalize that uh,they make enough money. They don’t need any of my money. Which is about as bright as going to McDonalds, right before they close and asking for Free Food, because they l ready made enough money before you came in. People have trouble grasping that Paypal is not your friend or family. But won’t hesitate to use the Service for Free anytime they can. I have no doubt that some of you ‘are’ friends or family…ok that’s fine. But, misrepresenting the actual facts in a transaction…. Is not fudging. It’s lying, straight up. Months ago, a scare went through the BST. It was reported the IRS would be watching PayPal transactions and sending out Bills based on sales over $600 or something in that neighborhood. That’s all the free riders needed to justify ramping up the F&F option. I did not disagree with that. The IRS lives to Suck us Dry. But a few months back, the IRS updated their stance and said the new rules were too confusing and they wouldn’t be sending out tax bills on yo-yo sales. Now, that being said, the fees for G&S are around $3 per hundred. I don’t see the challenge in just calculating the fees into the asking price of the yo-yo? That $3 per hundred fee, insures that both parties in a transaction are covered in case of a problem. Is your honesty rating worth $3 a hundred? I don’t expect this thread to get many responses. But it will certainly be interesting to see who wants to put on the Dunce cap and provide a Magical, rational, reasonable and logical excuse to justify lying for $3 a hundred? ---
**Author:** ![KirbyRobot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/forums.yoyoexpert.com/kirbyrobot/32/608292_2.png) [@KirbyRobot](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/KirbyRobot)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 3:13am UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/2 "2023-03-25T03:13:05Z")
I get dunked on by Paypal anyways because they upgraded my account to a business account without ever notifying me or giving me the choice to drop it down, so G&S is mandatory unless I go thru venmo lol. ---
**Author:** ![JEA86](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/forums.yoyoexpert.com/jea86/32/288088_2.png) [@JEA86](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/JEA86)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 3:22am UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/3 "2023-03-25T03:22:31Z")
If you read the statement that the IRS put out they paused it for 2022, but would go into full effect for 2023. So basically everyone in 2022 got put under the 200 transaction and 20k in income threshold - which was the previous guidance. As of right now 1099’s will be sent in 2023 in G&S payments in the total collective amounts of 600.00. Here is straight from the IRS website > **[IRS announces delay for implementation of $600 reporting threshold for...](https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-announces-delay-for-implementation-of-600-reporting-threshold-for-third-party-payment-platforms-forms-1099-k)** > > Updated January 3, 2023: Frequently asked questions about Form 1099-K PDF IR-2022-226, December 23, 2022 ---
**Author:** ![yoyodoc](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/forums.yoyoexpert.com/yoyodoc/32/48820_2.png) [@yoyodoc](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/yoyodoc)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 3:26am UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/4 "2023-03-25T03:26:17Z")
Well, that’s a pretty good response. I have no worthwhile rebuttal for that… ---
**Author:** ![jhb8426](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/forums.yoyoexpert.com/jhb8426/32/631_2.png) [@jhb8426](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/jhb8426)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 4:21am UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/5 "2023-03-25T04:21:08Z")
My preference is to pay for G&S and for people to pay me the same way. I will gladly include the fee in my transactions if requested. I do wonder though how much they make on the float and their credit card business. I also question the legitimacy of the tax argument. How many people selling on the BST actually make the $600 limit? I imagine selling a few high end yoyos will approach that but generally I think it is a bogus argument. ---
**Author:** ![Alex](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/forums.yoyoexpert.com/alex/32/203786_2.png) [@Alex](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/Alex)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 4:32am UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/6 "2023-03-25T04:32:04Z")
I sell things on plenty of other forums, especially audio gear which hits that in usually 1 transaction. I don’t think it’s all about the yoyo BST. But even then, dealing with Ti stuff, you’re at only 2-3 before you hit 600$ ---
**Author:** ![aszyd](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/forums.yoyoexpert.com/aszyd/32/151864_2.png) [@aszyd](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/aszyd)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 4:41am UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/7 "2023-03-25T04:41:24Z")
Yup. I sold a couple RSO throws to a gentleman who insisted on G&S. One Ti and one Alu. Hit the cap immediately. Not to mention the other 40+ throws I have sold this year with a varying range of prices. Some of us have collections in the hundreds and when it’s time to purge, we can move a lot of metal. ---
**Author:** ![Alex](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/forums.yoyoexpert.com/alex/32/203786_2.png) [@Alex](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/Alex)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 5:37am UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/8 "2023-03-25T05:37:50Z")
Yeah, and especially if you’re in other hobbies with BSTs, you hit that incredibly quickly. ---
**Author:** ![MaximShoots](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/forums.yoyoexpert.com/maximshoots/32/171131_2.png) [@MaximShoots](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/MaximShoots)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 7:51am UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/9 "2023-03-25T07:51:45Z")
F&F or G&S technically still need to report it unless you are selling at a loss compared to your buying price iirc, and all trades are barter so that falls into that too. Not to mention sponsorship stuff, that too, typically falls under barter (at least in my case). Not a tax professional but I do pay my taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Deadboots](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/forums.yoyoexpert.com/deadboots/32/187928_2.png) [@Deadboots](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/Deadboots)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 8:28am UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/10 "2023-03-25T08:28:27Z")
G&S is absolutely the best way to protect both the buyer and seller. However, I prefer F&F when both buying and selling, largely because I don’t think my hobby and related spending that has _already_ been taxed multiple times should be reported to the IRS. I take pride in making sure people who buy from me have a good experience, and I know several sellers and traders here who do the same. Our community seems to be very good at weeding out bad apples, and I’m glad that there is a relatively high baseline level of trust among the rest of us. I’m not trying to make too much of it here, but I personally think F&F payments and refunds among buyers and sellers with good feedback is a strong indicator of this. ---
**Author:** ![fos1](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/forums.yoyoexpert.com/fos1/32/150706_2.png) [@fos1](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/fos1)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 9:27am UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/11 "2023-03-25T09:27:45Z")
I’m uncomfortable with F&F. I would rather pay the transaction fee. I’m very small potatoes but worry about someone auditing the F&F transactions for legitimacy. The IRS can mash even small potatoes. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![TheSliverKing](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/forums.yoyoexpert.com/thesliverking/32/297284_2.png) [@TheSliverKing](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/TheSliverKing)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 4:30pm UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/12 "2023-03-25T16:30:41Z")
I’m with you 100% family and friends makes me uncomfortable 😕 ---
**Author:** ![yoyo\_cubicle](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/forums.yoyoexpert.com/yoyo_cubicle/32/691750_2.png) [@yoyo\_cubicle](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/yoyo_cubicle)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 4:42pm UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/13 "2023-03-25T16:42:06Z")
I’m glad this topic is being discussed again, especially since there’s been a number of new members to join the forum. When I first started BSTing, I stated that prices were for PayPal G&S. This year I switched to this statement: “Price is for Paypal F&F (G&S is fine, but please cover fees) and includes shipping anywhere in the United States.” This topic has convinced me that I should go back to the former. I’d also like to say it’s really nice to see the Paypal and shipping policies clearly stated in the BST post. ---
**Author:** ![Alex](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/forums.yoyoexpert.com/alex/32/203786_2.png) [@Alex](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/Alex)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 7:49pm UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/14 "2023-03-25T19:49:52Z")
I’m never selling stuff for profit, and I don’t think most people in BSTs that are actually a part of the overarching community are. At the very best in most cases it’s about breaking even, and I think for a lot it’s money that’s going back into the hobby anyways to fund other purchases. For the most part though I’d assume the majority of transactions people are taking a loss on retail prices. ---
**Author:** ![knotgreen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/forums.yoyoexpert.com/knotgreen/32/199292_2.png) [@knotgreen](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/knotgreen)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 9:21pm UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/15 "2023-03-25T21:21:47Z")
G&S protects both parties. I buy a lot of records on various forums and I insist on G&S as both a buyer and seller. It’s a small cost for peace of mind. ---
**Author:** ![fos1](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/forums.yoyoexpert.com/fos1/32/150706_2.png) [@fos1](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/fos1)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 9:42pm UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/16 "2023-03-25T21:42:23Z")
Having to deal with the IRS and proving cost vs selling cost and having to deal with tax issues are one of the main reasons I never sell my collectable possessions. I will either give them to someone that would care or leave them for my children to sort out. ---
**Author:** ![jhb8426](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/forums.yoyoexpert.com/jhb8426/32/631_2.png) [@jhb8426](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/jhb8426)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 10:56pm UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/17 "2023-03-25T22:56:13Z")
Unless you really sell big time (multiple thousands of dollars) I think people are over reacting to this. I won a kayak worth $2500 3-4 years ago. They sent me a 1099 for that amount. I think it ended up adding less than $10 to my tax bill. ---
**Author:** ![CorbitsOrbits](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@CorbitsOrbits](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/CorbitsOrbits)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 11:04pm UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/18 "2023-03-25T23:04:13Z")
My 2 cents If you want to buy and sell G&S only on the BSTs thats all good. But what protects the T in BST? With a trade you have zero guarantee and no protection, you have to rely on reputation and feedback. If that’s the case then I don’t understand the hang up with F&F if the seller has solid feedback. Also as JEA86 already pointed out the new rules are in effect as of 2023 and I am another that is of the belief that I shouldn’t be taxed again on something I’ve already paid the tax on. Last thought if you are only looking to buy G&S and come across a post that says F&F only don’t try to buy a throw then say you only pay G&S, just keep looking till you find another seller that you’re more comfortable with. ---
**Author:** ![KirbyRobot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/forums.yoyoexpert.com/kirbyrobot/32/608292_2.png) [@KirbyRobot](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/KirbyRobot)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 11:38pm UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/19 "2023-03-25T23:38:26Z")
Hey, can we please indicate the difference between a CLYW Kayak and a water navigation kayak in the future? Thank you, I nearly started the 6 month long research process for a documentary video regarding this post and the $2.5k CLYW Kayak. /j ---
**Author:** ![Chriscatastrophe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/user_avatar/forums.yoyoexpert.com/chriscatastrophe/32/111769_2.png) [@Chriscatastrophe](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/u/Chriscatastrophe)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2023, 11:50pm UTC](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542/20 "2023-03-25T23:50:11Z")
I think the problem is that PayPal and eBay etc are still going to file it and it was a bit of a mess trying to sort out and document if profit was made . [Next page](https://forums.yoyoexpert.com/t/f-f-here-we-go-again/372542.md?page=2)